Randy Moss retires.

[Senser81]

Listening to Mike and Mike this morning (unfortunately), and they both emphatically said they would take Terrell Owens over Randy Moss. HUH? Its amazing to me how recent events skew historical perspective. They said Moss was a problem in the locker room...but Owens wasn't? They said Moss didn't block on running plays...but Owens did? Owens had a body like Art Monk on steroids, but he didn't have the desire to block.

The part that annoyed me was when they said Owens would catch passes over the middle and Moss wouldn't. From what I remember of Owens, he would drop passes if a defender was closing on him. He wasn't really an "over the middle" guy, either.

To me, its no contest. Moss was faster and had much better hands than Owens.

[Senser81]

He's one of the all time quitters.
As a person theres nothing wrong with it. But in an athletic sense if someone doesnt see anything wrong with what he and say Ricky Williams did I dont know what to tell you.

Just in our gen
Jeff George , Dickerson ,Barry Sanders , Moss , Ricky Williams ,Haynseworth
All lasted a long time , some had spurts or even years of dominance. Moss elevated his teams to elite status that noone outside of QB can compare.
Yet none will ever be considered the best despite outclassing everyone in there league at there positions in raw talent.None have any hardware and only one has an all time record of any significance.

Kind of a ridiculous statement concerning Sanders. The guy played for 10 years and averaged 300+ carries a season. He is still 6th all-time in rushing attempts. I don't really think thats quitting in mid-career.

Its funny how you've turned Sanders' strengths into weaknesses. Sanders wasn't flashy. He rarely spoke to the media. He just did his job and was very consistent. When he retired, there was no fanfare. Compare that to Emmitt Smith, who would routinely get unsportsmanlike conduct penalties for taking his helmet off after scoring a TD, and who hung around 3 years too long just to break Payton's record.

I still consider Sanders to be better than Smith, despite not having the all-time rushing record. If having the record changes your opinion in the Sanders/Smith debate, then basically what you are doing is rewarding Smith for staying on for those 3 extra seasons he needed to break Payton's record, and also saying that those 3 extra seasons made Smith "greater" than Sanders, which is a joke.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Listening to Mike and Mike this morning (unfortunately), and they both emphatically said they would take Terrell Owens over Randy Moss. HUH? Its amazing to me how recent events skew historical perspective. They said Moss was a problem in the locker room...but Owens wasn't? They said Moss didn't block on running plays...but Owens did? Owens had a body like Art Monk on steroids, but he didn't have the desire to block.

The part that annoyed me was when they said Owens would catch passes over the middle and Moss wouldn't. From what I remember of Owens, he would drop passes if a defender was closing on him. He wasn't really an "over the middle" guy, either.

To me, its no contest. Moss was faster and had much better hands than Owens.

Owens had infamous "alligator arms" over the middle, to the point it became a running joke.

Owens was stronger and tougher to bring down. That's really the only edge he ever had on Moss, but at the same time it's a pretty low ranking skill/requirement for an NFL WR. And while Moss loafed in Oakland and probably loafed in Tennessee (that situation was a mess, so who knows), Owens loafed for nearly every team he ever played for once he wore out his welcome, and destroyed three locker rooms in the process.

[nflman2033]

Listening to Mike and Mike this morning (unfortunately), and they both emphatically said they would take Terrell Owens over Randy Moss. HUH? Its amazing to me how recent events skew historical perspective. They said Moss was a problem in the locker room...but Owens wasn't? They said Moss didn't block on running plays...but Owens did? Owens had a body like Art Monk on steroids, but he didn't have the desire to block.

The part that annoyed me was when they said Owens would catch passes over the middle and Moss wouldn't. From what I remember of Owens, he would drop passes if a defender was closing on him. He wasn't really an "over the middle" guy, either.

To me, its no contest. Moss was faster and had much better hands than Owens.

Hilarious, Owens not a problem in locker room, catching over the middle, sure maybe more than moss, but certainly not one of his strengths

[Tailback U]

I wrote this one night about 8 months ago while stoned and on adderall.

I don't even know why I'm posting it, really, but now or never:

This is somewhat of a rhetorical question, because we all know that Jerry Rice is the greatest wide receiver of all time.

But listen to me for a second while I play devil's advocate.

First and foremost, let's look at the quarterbacks.

1997: Brad Johnson and the Vikings go 9-7, tallying up 354 points on offense (22.1ppg) with Johnson throwing for 3,036 yards, 20 TDs, and 12 INTs. Robert Smith averaged 5.5ypc while running for 1,266 yards and 6 TDs. Cris Carter caught 89 balls for 1,069 yards and 13 TDs. Jake Reed hauled in another 68 for 1,138 yards and 6 TDs. Needless to say, a pretty damn good offense.

1998: Insert Randy Moss and a 35 year old Randall Cunningham, who hadn't completed a full season since 1990. The Vikings go 15-1, put up 556 points on offense (34.8ppg), and Cunningham throws for 3,704 yards, 34 TDs, and 10 INTs.

Cunningham, who averaged a 81.5 QB rating during his career posts a QB rating of 106.0 and nearly doubles his career TD% from 4.8 to 8.0. He averages 8.7 yards per completion, by far the highest during a career in which he averaged 7.0 yards per completion.

The lone difference? Randy Moss. Moss replaces Jake Reed as the deep threat in the Vikings offense, and in his rookie season, starts 11 games and hauls in 68 passes, 1317 yards, and 17 touchdowns. Moss averages 19.03 yards per catch on the year.

1999: The Vikings start off 2-4 and bench Cunningham for throwing 9 INTs through the first 6 games. Insert Jeff George, who steps in and completes 58% of his passes, goes 8-2 on the season and has his best season ever in terms of TD% (7.0) and YPC (14.7).

The Vikings finish 10-6, beat the Cowboys in the wildcard round and lose the following week the St. Louis Rams. Moss, who is no secret to NFL defenses in his 2nd season, averages 17.7 yards per catch while hauling in 80 passes for 1413 yards and 11 TDs.

2000: Rookie quarterback Daunte Culpepper is named the starter. Moss continues to strike fear into defenses, showing that it really doesn't matter who is throwing him the ball, by catching 77 balls for 1413 yards and 15 touchdowns. The Vikings go 11-5 and lose in the NFC championship game.

2001: Culpepper starts off 4-7 despite completing 64.2% of his passes, throwing 14 TDs and 13 INTs in 11 games before suffering a season ending knee injury. Quarterbacks Todd Bouman and Spergon Wynn would step in for Culpepper and go 1-5. Moss posts 82 catches, 1233 yards, and 10 TDs while catching passes from 3 different quarterbacks.

2002: Cris Carter retires and Culpepper returns from his knee injury. Culpepper throws for nearly 4,000 yards, 18 TDs, but 23 interceptions. The Vikings defense ranks 30th in the league. Despite being surrounded by shitheads, Moss posts 106 receptions, 1347 yards, and 7 touchdowns.

2003: The Vikings start off 6-0. Culpepper throws 17 of his 25 touchdowns to Randy Moss. The Vikings offense puts up 26ppg, 6th in the NFL, with bums like Onterrio Smith and Moe Williams at HB, and Jim Kleinsasser and Nate Burleson at TE/WR. The Vikings would finish 9-7, Moss catches 111 balls, 1632 yards, and 17 TDs.

2004: The Vikings start the season 5-1. Moss starts the season hot, catching 8 touchdowns in the first 5 games before suffering a hamstring injury in week 6. Moss misses 6 games and is hampered by the injury all season long. Moss has his worst season as a pro, tallying 49 receptions for 767 yards and 13 TDs in 11 games. The Vikings average 25.3ppg (6th in the league) and would lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

2005 - 2007 The Vikings trade Randy Moss to Oakland and watch their scoring production fall from 25.3ppg (6th) to 19.2 (19th) in just 1 season. Culpepper throws 6 TDs and 12 INTs to go 2-6 before losing his job to Brad Johnson.

As expected, Moss' numbers drop in Oakland as the Raiders establish themselves as the worst franchise in sports history, losing 11 games or more for 7 straight seasons. Still, Moss puts up decent numbers, catching 60 balls for 1005 yards and 8 touchdowns from Kerry Collins, who had a history of drinking problems.

I guess I just kind of quit after this because I realized I was spending way too much time on this. I didn't even get into his New England days, which we all know about. Long story short: he broke receiving records and the Patriots put up more points than any team in history.

2007 Patriots (No Moss): 12-4, 385 points, 7th in NFL.
2008 Patriots (W/Moss): 16-0, 589 points, 1st in NFL.

[Realist]

I refuse to imagine.
Immense talent (Barry, Jeff George ,Moss) usually leads to questionable desire.
Its those guys with 1 or 2 elite physical traits that happens to have hof drive(Rice, Brady ,Emmitt) that usually make the difference and end up as winners and record holders.

Its extremely rare to see freakish physical gifts meet world class desire....let alone have that avoid injury. Psychology and numbers make it rare.

One perfect example of it happening is going to the hof this year.

Where would Deion Sanders fall into this discussion? I know he's a defensive (mainly) player but just curious on others opinions.

Also, I agree with others Barry > Emmitt

[Aso]

Moss started '05 off hot but then I believe he had some sort of injury and Norv Turner turned Moss into just a deep threat while Porter started hauling in more passes.

[Diivox]

Randy Moss - CFL / UFL if it ever plays, or, see T.O. I really think he's done in the NFL though.

Called it in the free agent guessing game thread!


................. of course I only got one other one right, hasselbeck, and the verdict is still out on TO... but last season was pathetic for Randy and I just didn't see him bouncing back from it.

[Prodigal Son]

Listening to Mike and Mike this morning (unfortunately), and they both emphatically said they would take Terrell Owens over Randy Moss. HUH? Its amazing to me how recent events skew historical perspective. They said Moss was a problem in the locker room...but Owens wasn't? They said Moss didn't block on running plays...but Owens did? Owens had a body like Art Monk on steroids, but he didn't have the desire to block.

The part that annoyed me was when they said Owens would catch passes over the middle and Moss wouldn't. From what I remember of Owens, he would drop passes if a defender was closing on him. He wasn't really an "over the middle" guy, either.

To me, its no contest. Moss was faster and had much better hands than Owens.

You sure you listened, and not just zoned out?

They said that Owens was an issue with the locker room, but that Moss had issues off the field, bringing up the time he ran over a meter maid. They then brought up Owens work rate compared to Moss. TO would play his ass off in games, where Moss would only play if his name was called in the huddle.

They proceeded to mention that both were unwilling to go over the middle, but TO would on occasion do it. Also that TO had more of an issue with catching the ball. Ending that neither was really that big of a blocker, but TO would be more willing to block then Moss was.

[Saluki]

I've said it before and i'll say it again. I'll take Moss as a slouch anyday. Season before last when they were talking every week about how he wasn't playing hard, and how he wasn't running his routes ect, he had 13 TDs. If you can slouch for 13TDs i'll take it.

[Prodigal Son]

Randy Moss as a slouch with Tom Brady, yes. Randy Moss as a slouch with, Aaron Brooks, Andrew Walters, and Marquis Tuiasosopo, no.

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Kind of a ridiculous statement concerning Sanders. The guy played for 10 years and averaged 300+ carries a season. He is still 6th all-time in rushing attempts. I don't really think thats quitting in mid-career.

Its funny how you've turned Sanders' strengths into weaknesses. Sanders wasn't flashy. He rarely spoke to the media. He just did his job and was very consistent. When he retired, there was no fanfare. Compare that to Emmitt Smith, who would routinely get unsportsmanlike conduct penalties for taking his helmet off after scoring a TD, and who hung around 3 years too long just to break Payton's record.

I still consider Sanders to be better than Smith, despite not having the all-time rushing record. If having the record changes your opinion in the Sanders/Smith debate, then basically what you are doing is rewarding Smith for staying on for those 3 extra seasons he needed to break Payton's record, and also saying that those 3 extra seasons made Smith "greater" than Sanders, which is a joke.

When did I say mid-career, flashy, or compared celebrations?

There is no debate one has accolades and hardware the other doesn't. Moss/Rice Payton/Dickerson Williams/Faulk George /Brady etc etc
Barry had every tool and oppurtunity to be the best ever. His lack of desire is the single reason why he doesnt. You seem to be logged into mm circa 2002 this is about athleticism and desire.

Bruce smith Jerry rice also hung on too long. Who gives a shit. Maximizing and surpassing your potential >>>> getting by on talent.


Fyi Emmitt Barry didn't come in the same year. At the exact same 10 yr marks of there career Emmitt was behind by 1400 yards and ahead by about 40 tds. Only a fool takes the 1400 yds over 40 extra scores.
At 100 years old he was a hair shy of 1000 yds and 10 tds sharing carries on the frigging cards. Desire and hanging on too long > going home and screwing your teammates.

[Senser81]

You sure you listened, and not just zoned out?

They said that Owens was an issue with the locker room, but that Moss had issues off the field, bringing up the time he ran over a meter maid. They then brought up Owens work rate compared to Moss. TO would play his ass off in games, where Moss would only play if his name was called in the huddle.

They proceeded to mention that both were unwilling to go over the middle, but TO would on occasion do it. Also that TO had more of an issue with catching the ball. Ending that neither was really that big of a blocker, but TO would be more willing to block then Moss was.

You sure you listened, and not just zoned out?

You basically just said what I said, only you presented it in the reverse fashion. The way I presented it was how it was presented on Mike and Mike. They would point out a fault of Moss' game, downgrade it, then at the end they would make a cursory mention of Owens having the same fault.

The issues Moss had off-the-field aren't even comparable to the disruption Owens would cause in the locker room. Moss was liked by his teammates, Owens was hated by his teammates. Mike and Mike did a terrible job presenting that.

Same thing with TO's alleged "work rate". He had the same lapses of effort and inconsistency that Moss had. They were very similar in that they tried more in big games. If Owens' work rate was that superior to Moss', then why was Owens such a piss-poor run blocker? Again, Mike and Mike did a terrible job presenting that.

Finally, the "over the middle" argument presented by Mike and Mike was laughable. Because it was presented in a way that said "disregard Moss' playmaking abilities, because he didn't go over the middle like TO did". That would be like saying Gorman Thomas was a better power hitter than Harmon Killebrew because Thomas stole more bases.

[Senser81]

Fyi Emmitt Barry didn't come in the same year. At the exact same 10 yr marks of there career Emmitt was behind by 1400 yards and ahead by about 40 tds. Only a fool takes the 1400 yds over 40 extra scores.
At 100 years old he was a hair shy of 1000 yds and 10 tds sharing carries on the frigging cards. Desire and hanging on too long > going home and screwing your teammates.

Sanders made the pro bowl every year of his career (10 times), and was 1st team All-Pro 6 times. His pro bowl percentage is 100% and his All-Pro percentage is 60%.

Emmitt Smith made the pro bowl 8 times in his 15-year career, and was 1st team All-Pro 4 times. His pro bowl percentage is 53% and his All-Pro percentage is 27%.

Sanders accomplished more in 2/3 the time.

Sanders' numbers after 10 years:

3062-15269-5.0-99 TDs and 99.8 yards per game

Smith's numbers after 10 years:

3243-13963-4.3-136 TDs and 90.1 yards per game

[Saluki]

Sanders made the pro bowl every year of his career (10 times), and was 1st team All-Pro 6 times. His pro bowl percentage is 100% and his All-Pro percentage is 60%.

Emmitt Smith made the pro bowl 8 times in his 15-year career, and was 1st team All-Pro 4 times. His pro bowl percentage is 53% and his All-Pro percentage is 27%.

Sanders accomplished more in 2/3 the time.

Sanders' numbers after 10 years:

3062-15269-5.0-99 TDs and 99.8 yards per game

Smith's numbers after 10 years:

3243-13963-4.3-136 TDs and 90.1 yards per game

To me it's pretty tough to compare the two. Emmit had ALOT of talent around him for a good number of his years in Dallas. Sanders carried that team on his back for 10 seasons with little to no help a majority of the time. You play the Cowboys you have a few hall of famers on offense you have to worry about stopping, you play the Lions you have to game plan for just 1 person.......who still managed to avg 5.0 ypc.