2011 Hall of Fame Inductees

[dell71]

Surprised there was no thread about this (unless I missed it). Anyhoo, your 2011 inductees into the HOF are (alphabetically):

Teresa Edwards
Artis Gilmore
Chris Mullin
Dennis Rodman
Arvydas Sabonis
Tom "Satch" Sanders
Reese "Goose" Tatum
Tara VanDerveer
Tex Winter

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-2011halloffameclass

The most interesting case to me is Chris Mullin. I love Mullin, but a HOFer? I dunno about that. Maybe since it's not strictly the NBA HOF and you include his college career. Maybe.

I'll just go ahead and call Satch Sanders getting in a 60s Celtics bias. It seems the people in charge are hellbent on getting everyone who played for Boston during that era into the hall.

 

[FirstTimer]

Surprised there was no thread about this (unless I missed it). Anyhoo, your 2011 inductees into the HOF are (alphabetically):

Teresa Edwards
Artis Gilmore
Chris Mullin
Dennis Rodman
Arvydas Sabonis
Tom "Satch" Sanders
Reese "Goose" Tatum
Tara VanDerveer
Tex Winter

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-2011halloffameclass

The most interesting case to me is Chris Mullin. I love Mullin, but a HOFer? I dunno about that. Maybe since it's not strictly the NBA HOF and you include his college career. Maybe.

I'll just go ahead and call Satch Sanders getting in a 60s Celtics bias. It seems the people in charge are hellbent on getting everyone who played for Boston during that era into the hall.

I had the same feelings on Mullin. A real head scratcher there. Then again most of the HOF's now are jokes.

 

[ralaw]

Have you guys seen who's in the basketball HOF? I'll just say that it certainly doesn't have the same prestige as the Pro Football or MLB HOFs. Which raises another issue which is the NBA should have its own HOF. Basketball just lumps everyone who's ever been affiliated with basketball across the globe together...its a joke.

In regards to Mullin he certainly put up numbers in his prime and played on some decent teams.....and because of that coupled with the low standards of the HOF I can easily see him being a HOFer.

 

[FedEx227]

Rodman was one of my favorite players growing up but I have a hard time believing he should be in the HOF.

Mullin as well. And why the fuck did Reggie get snubbed?

 

[Senser81]

Mullin could kill Teresa Edwards in a game of 1-on-1.

Mullin is a HOF no-brainer. He could have done jack in the NBA and still been in the HOF. He was one of the best college players in history. 3-time all american. 3-time Big East player of the year. 1985 Wooden Award winner (top player).

Pretty awesome that Artis Gilmore made it. He led Jacksonville University to the Final Four. He is one of only 5 players in NCAA history to average 20 points and 20 rebounds per game for a career.

 

[FirstTimer]

Have you guys seen who's in the basketball HOF? I'll just say that it certainly doesn't have the same prestige as the Pro Football or MLB HOFs. Which raises another issue which is the NBA should have its own HOF. Basketball just lumps everyone who's ever been affiliated with basketball across the globe together...its a joke.

In regards to Mullin he certainly put up numbers in his prime and played on some decent teams.....and because of that coupled with the low standards of the HOF I can easily see him being a HOFer.

As Senser said I havea feelign it was more his college career that got him in. He had a solid NBA career but not sure how much that really elevated his HOF status.

Rodman was one of my favorite players growing up but I have a hard time believing he should be in the HOF.

Mullin as well. And why the fuck did Reggie get snubbed?

Reggie getting snubbed is a joke IMO. Still can't believe it.

Rodman is interesting. Hard to ignore all the NBA defensive teams. His titles, and the rebounding titles as well playing during an era of qutie a few elite big men. I'd put Reggie in before Rodman, I think, but I feel both are deserving.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

No Reggie is an EPIC fail..

 

[FedEx227]

As Senser said I havea feelign it was more his college career that got him in. He had a solid NBA career but not sure how much that really elevated his HOF status.


Reggie getting snubbed is a joke IMO. Still can't believe it.

Rodman is interesting. Hard to ignore all the NBA defensive teams. His titles, and the rebounding titles as well playing during an era of qutie a few elite big men. I'd put Reggie in before Rodman, I think, but I feel both are deserving.

The problem with Rodman in my mind is he was SO one-dimensional. Maybe two dimensional if you want to count his rebounding and scoring separately.

If Rodman had contributed something... ANYTHING to the offensive side of the ball it'd be a no-brainer, but most other hall of famers have rebounding numbers that are similar to Rodman, but also scored 15+ per game. The titles, yeah, there's no doubt he has a history of success, but there's also no doubt that the teams he played on were littered with not only hall of famers, but in both cases top 10 players of all time (Isiah and Jordan) as well as top 50 or fringe top 50 guys like Pippen.

If you let Rodman in, do you also have to elicit discussion for Ben Wallace when he eventually retires?

 

[FirstTimer]

The problem with Rodman in my mind is he was SO one-dimensional. Maybe two dimensional if you want to count his rebounding and scoring separately.

If Rodman had contributed something... ANYTHING to the offensive side of the ball it'd be a no-brainer, but most other hall of famers have rebounding numbers that are similar to Rodman, but also scored 15+ per game. The titles, yeah, there's no doubt he has a history of success, but there's also no doubt that the teams he played on were littered with not only hall of famers, but in both cases top 10 players of all time (Isiah and Jordan) as well as top 50 or fringe top 50 guys like Pippen.

If you let Rodman in, do you also have to elicit discussion for Ben Wallace when he eventually retires?

Ben Wallace is interesting. Wasn't much of acollege player(Rodman was) and Wallace's run as en elite defender/rebounder was pretty short compared to Rodman's. Hell even in his Lakers days Rodman was pulling down 14rpg. Wallace left Detroit and pretty much fell off the face of the earth. I think in retrospect we can all see Wallace's DPOY were overrated for certain reasons whereas Rodman was an elite defender pretty much his entire career...same with rebounding.

 

[FedEx227]

Still I wonder if it opens the flood gates. Yes Rodman was an elite rebounder and defender, but he didn't contribute on the offensive end, at all. That's tough for me to put into the Hall.

And thank fucking god they finally put Tex Winter in, jesus. Thanks for contributing directly to 11 NBA Championships in the past 20 years and revolutionizing offense in the NBA, let's be sure to put you in after you have a stroke.

 

[Senser81]

If you let Rodman in, do you also have to elicit discussion for Ben Wallace when he eventually retires?

Comparing Ben Wallace's HOF worthiness to Rodman because they both could rebound is like comparing Mike Vick's HOF worthiness to Fran Tarkenton because they both could run.

Your whole argument is dependent on scoring. You say that Rodman contributed nothing on the offensive end, yet he led the league in offensive rebounds 6 times. He was possibly the best on-the-ball defender in the NBA for many years. He could defend Shaq just as easily as he could defend Karl Malone or Shawn Kemp.

You can put Rodman on any team and they immediately become better. He doesn't have to fit into any scheme. He grabs rebounds, and he defends anyone.

"Fuck You FedEx."​

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Still I wonder if it opens the flood gates. Yes Rodman was an elite rebounder and defender, but he didn't contribute on the offensive end, at all. That's tough for me to put into the Hall.

Rodman's 5 Championships are obviously his biggest factor for getting in, Wallace has 1.. not really comparable. For as good as Wallace has been defensively throughout.. hes only averaging 10RPG in his career, it doesnt tell the full story, but as was said, even in his dying days Rodman was pulling down massive rebounding numbers, and was able to maintain a high average throughout his career. Wallace of course may have been a more imposing force in terms of blocks, but Rodman was one of the best ball defenders of his time. I just dont think Rodman getting in should hold any warrant towards Wallace getting in.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Rodman is one of the best defensive players of all time, aside from his rebounding.

Rodman was a pest as a defender and he could guard the 2-3-4-5.

 

[FedEx227]

When did I say Wallace SHOULD get in? I never said that.

I said does it open the door for discussion of guys like Wallace who really have no business getting in, but can start receiving some discussion as a result of someone like Rodman getting in. Not saying Rodman and Wallace are on the same level, but Wallace has many of the same skill sets Rodman had just not on as grand of a scale.

Obviously Rodman was better, I'm not arguing that at all, shit I just wore a Rodman jersey to a Bulls game 4 nights ago. The fact though is he's 22nd all time in rebounds, the guys before him and the few after him also contributed offensively:

Wilt, Russell, Moses, Kareem, Gilmore, Hayes, Malone, Parish, THurmond, Bellamy, Unseld, Hakeem, Shaq, Williams (not in HOF), Lucas, Pettit, Garnett, Barkley, Mutombo (very similar though not in HOF), Silas (not in HOF), Oakley (also similar not in HOF), Duncan, Willis (not in HOF), Ewing, Elgin Baylor

There's precedent for great rebounding but mediocre offensive guys not getting into the hall like Paul Silas and Buck Williams. Like Kuzzy mentioned Rodman was an exceptional defender and won more championships and again its the friggin basketball hall of fame so who cares, but Rodman is not a sure fire one to me.

 

[Senser81]

Not saying Rodman and Wallace are on the same level, but Wallace has many of the same skill sets Rodman had just not on as grand of a scale.

Wallace is almost the opposite of Rodman in a certain sense. Wallace needed to be surrounded by talented players, both offensively and defensively, to excel. He wasn't nearly the force Rodman was on the offensive boards, so his contribution to a team's offense was limited. He wasn't nearly as good an on-the-ball defender as Rodman, so he needed talented teammates to funnel their man inside, and Wallace needed to be matched up against someone as slow as him so Wallace could camp out and block shots. Put Wallace on a team without these pieces, and he's terrible, as he was on the Bulls. Rodman's skill set allowed him to excel no matter what the situation.

To continue harping on Rodman's lack of scoring and then comparing it to completely different players like Ben Wallace and Kevin Willis is like saying Ozzie Smith was a mediocre hitter, so his induction opens the floodgates to equally weak-hitting players like Dane Iorg and Steve Jeltz.

 

[dell71]

Have you guys seen who's in the basketball HOF? I'll just say that it certainly doesn't have the same prestige as the Pro Football or MLB HOFs. Which raises another issue which is the NBA should have its own HOF. Basketball just lumps everyone who's ever been affiliated with basketball across the globe together...its a joke.

In regards to Mullin he certainly put up numbers in his prime and played on some decent teams.....and because of that coupled with the low standards of the HOF I can easily see him being a HOFer.

NBA definitely needs its own HOF, but I fear that ship has sailed.

Rodman was one of my favorite players growing up but I have a hard time believing he should be in the HOF.

Mullin as well. And why the fuck did Reggie get snubbed?

I'd put Reggie in before Mullin. To me, Rodman is a no-brainer (see below).

Mullin could kill Teresa Edwards in a game of 1-on-1.

Mullin is a HOF no-brainer. He could have done jack in the NBA and still been in the HOF. He was one of the best college players in history. 3-time all american. 3-time Big East player of the year. 1985 Wooden Award winner (top player).

Pretty awesome that Artis Gilmore made it. He led Jacksonville University to the Final Four. He is one of only 5 players in NCAA history to average 20 points and 20 rebounds per game for a career.

Lmao on Mullin v Edwards.

If Mullin could've gotten in without doing jack in the NBA, why isn't Ralph Sampson in?

Ben Wallace is interesting. Wasn't much of acollege player(Rodman was) and Wallace's run as en elite defender/rebounder was pretty short compared to Rodman's. Hell even in his Lakers days Rodman was pulling down 14rpg. Wallace left Detroit and pretty much fell off the face of the earth. I think in retrospect we can all see Wallace's DPOY were overrated for certain reasons whereas Rodman was an elite defender pretty much his entire career...same with rebounding.

When did I say Wallace SHOULD get in? I never said that.

I said does it open the door for discussion of guys like Wallace who really have no business getting in, but can start receiving some discussion as a result of someone like Rodman getting in. Not saying Rodman and Wallace are on the same level, but Wallace has many of the same skill sets Rodman had just not on as grand of a scale.

Obviously Rodman was better, I'm not arguing that at all, shit I just wore a Rodman jersey to a Bulls game 4 nights ago. The fact though is he's 22nd all time in rebounds, the guys before him and the few after him also contributed offensively:

Wilt, Russell, Moses, Kareem, Gilmore, Hayes, Malone, Parish, THurmond, Bellamy, Unseld, Hakeem, Shaq, Williams (not in HOF), Lucas, Pettit, Garnett, Barkley, Mutombo (very similar though not in HOF), Silas (not in HOF), Oakley (also similar not in HOF), Duncan, Willis (not in HOF), Ewing, Elgin Baylor

There's precedent for great rebounding but mediocre offensive guys not getting into the hall like Paul Silas and Buck Williams. Like Kuzzy mentioned Rodman was an exceptional defender and won more championships and again its the friggin basketball hall of fame so who cares, but Rodman is not a sure fire one to me.

Saying he's 22nd all time in rebounds hardly does him justice, though.

His 13.1 rpg is the highest career average of any player who started their career after the NBA/ABA merger. When most of the people ahead of him played, league-wide FG% was less than 40% so there were a lot more rebounds to go around.

Among the top 40 rebounders of all time, he and David Robinson are the only two to have started after the merger and played in less than 1000 games. Robinson's 987 games is 76 more than Rodman, but Rodman has close to 1500 more boards. Think about that this way: a season less worth of games, 2 seasons more worth of rebounds.

It's well documented that he won 7 rebound titles (in a row btw), but take it a step further. During not one of those seasons did anyone come within a full rpg of his average. Jayson Williams in '97-98 came closest at 1.4 rpg back. In several of those seasons he averaged better than 4 rpg more than the person who finished 2nd. By comparison, Michael Jordan only finished 4 ppg better than the #2 guy twice. Magic, Stockton, Kidd nor Nash ever led the league in assists by more than 4 apg.

Let's not forget he was a slim 6'8" forward playing during an era when there were a number of HOF centers and taller, bulkier players at his own position.

Senser already addressed him leading the league in offensive rebounds 6 times. Ask any coach if that counts as contributing on the offensive end.

Back to defense - 2 DPoY awards, 7 times All-Defense 1st team.

Call him one dimensional if you must, but he was unbelievably good at what he did.

 

[Senser81]

If Mullin could've gotten in without doing jack in the NBA, why isn't Ralph Sampson in?

Because everyone hated Sampson?

 

[ryne candy]

Rodman was one of my favorite players growing up but I have a hard time believing he should be in the HOF.

Mullin as well. And why the fuck did Reggie get snubbed?

He was not a good rebounder for his time...he was a great rounder ever. Led in rebounds 7 years in a row (a record), 5 championships in which he was an important part of the team, Def. Player of the Year 2x, All Def 1st Team 7x. He forced himself to grab rebounds. Being undersized didn't help him in that category. I'm not surprised he's a HOF...actually surprised they let him in.

edit: read your other post.

Teams didn't need him to score, they had Isiah, Dumars, Jordan, Pippen, Robinson, etc. Many of his rebounds led to fast breaks where they would score. I guess to me, if you are elite in even one category of basketball: scoring, rebounding, steals, etc for a long period of time (not just a season or 2)...you deserve to be in. He changed the game to me.

 

[FedEx227]

This was definitely a good basketball conversation I wish we could get this more in the NBA section.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

To continue harping on Rodman's lack of scoring and then comparing it to completely different players like Ben Wallace and Kevin Willis is like saying Ozzie Smith was a mediocre hitter, so his induction opens the floodgates to equally weak-hitting players like Dane Iorg and Steve Jeltz.

Tremendous obscure baseball references. Thanks.

STEVE JELTZ