All-star appearances in HOF arguments: pointless?

[Senser81]

Baseball's All-Star game is pointless, no matter what Bud Selig tries. Players make it based on reputation, fans get to vote the players in, Tony LaRussa only picks Cardinals players, etc. etc. etc. But add in the fact that the baseball all-star game takes place in midseason, and you have a messed up situation.

So why do people mention a player's all-star appearances as a point of merit for making the Hall of Fame? The whole process is so messed up to begin with, and then some very good players get overlooked for Cooperstown because they don't have enough all-star appearances on their resume.

The Bill Madlock Situation

Bill Madlock led the league in hitting 4 times, yet he was an all-star only 3 times. In 1976 he batted .339 with a .412 OBP and a .500 SLG, yet he did not make the all-star game. He was beaten out by Pete Rose (.323/.404/.450) and Ron Cey (.277/.386/.462). Oh, and Mike Schmidt was also on the 1976 all-star team, and he would go on to appear on the 1989 all-star team with a .203 batting average.


The Ken Schrom Incident

Ken Schrom was a below-average pitcher who hung around for a few years. He won 51 games, lost 51 games, walked 320 batters, struck out 371 batters, and had an ERA slightly below 5. So why are we mentioning him? Because he was an all-star in 1986, despite finishing with a 4.84 ERA for the middling Cleveland Indians, while Jack Morris was left off the team despite going 21-8 with a 3.27 ERA, 15 CGs, and 6 shutouts.

 

[FirstTimer]

I think it's a very small piece of the puzzle and a resume padder of sorts. You can take a general feel away from it of how the guy was viewed relative to his peers. I don't put much stock in it but it's something worth glancing over.

Juan Gonzalez won an MVP one year and didn't make the All-Star game.

:yao:

 

[shag773]

Doesn't every team need to be represented in the MLB all star game? I think Tyler Green was an all star for the Phillies one year. It might explain the snubs.

While it's probably way down on the list, I would think there should be a little bit of consideration taken with All Star appearances when discussing possible hall of fame inductees.

 

[Senser81]

Juan Gonzalez won an MVP one year and didn't make the All-Star game.

:yao:

Reminds me of Tom Jackson of ESPN trumpeting Donovan McNabb for NFL MVP, yet being ok with Jeff Garcia making the pro bowl instead of McNabb "because the pro bowl is only about statistics".

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

'The Ken Schrom Incident' should be used from now on to refer to undeserving players who make the All Star team based on the one per team rule.

"We'e got aother Ken Schrom Incident, Lyle Overbay made the All Star team"



Furthermore, snubbed deserving players, henceforth, will be described as being 'Schromed':

"Hey man, have you seen the All Star selections? Fielder totally got Schromed by Overbay. What a joke."

 

[FirstTimer]

Doesn't every team need to be represented in the MLB all star game?.

I think that's a pretty new rule isn't it?

PS: Fuck wikipedia for being down.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think that's a pretty new rule isn't it?

no

 

[FirstTimer]

no

When did it start? For some reason I thought that came about around the same time as the entire clusterfuck of Selig making the winning league of the AS game getting homefield for the WS.

Maybe I was so fucking disturbed by that I lumped every shitty thing about the game in together in my mind.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

When did it start. For some reason I thought that came about around the same time as the entire clusterfuck of Selig making the winning league of the AS game getting homefield for the WS.

Maybe I was so fucking disturbed by that I lumped every shitty thing about the game in together in my mind.

Pretty sure it goes back decades.

The idea was that the entire country would get to see the stars from all the teams (especially the opposite league) for one night, back when if you lived in Washington you were stuck watching the Senators.

 

[shag773]

'The Ken Schrom Incident' should be used from now on to refer to undeserving players who make the All Star team based on the one per team rule.

"We'e got aother Ken Schrom Incident, Lyle Overbay made the All Star team"



Furthermore, snubbed deserving players, henceforth, will be described as being 'Schromed':

"Hey man, have you seen the All Star selections? Fielder totally got Schromed by Overbay. What a joke."

Actually looking up the numbers, you could make a case about guys being "Tyler Greened". He was an All Star selection in 1995. He ended up 8-9 with a 5.31 ERA. Pete Schourek went 18-7 3.22 ERA and was 2nd in the NL Cy Young voting and did not make it.

 

[FedEx227]

It should have absolutely zero worth in HOF discussions. Completely irrelevant.

 

[NAHSTE]

It depends. If a player just didn't make very many and could have easily due to a watered down group of peers, sure. But if a guy plays at a loaded position or is a victim of the "1 per team rule" you can't count a lack of ASG appearances against him without considering those contextual factors.

There are situations like in 1999 where Ron Coomer made the All-Star Game over the eventual NL MVP due to dumb rules, but there are other situations where there are 5-6 great players at your position (like AL 1B and SS in the 90s, for instance).

Case by case basis, but normally I err on the side of context and logic over blindly trusting the ASG voting process.

 

[FedEx227]

Fan voting and the one per team rule destroys it having any relevance.

 

[nwfisch]

Fan voting destroys it having any relevance.

If one is to say that ZOMG Derek Jeter is a 15 time all-star he iz a lockz for der hall of famez.

It's another to say Derek Jeter has x hits, x HRs x RBI, x SBs. Those stats led him to x gold gloves and x all star games.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Only SABR fruit pops would say something so ridiculous.

Reputation has more worth to it than any nerdy algorithm some uber dork could put together to determine a players value.

By pointing out Ken Schrom and Bill Madlock, its kind of missing the forest for the trees here when discussing Hall of Fame...

At the end of the day, the Hall of Fame is about telling the story of the game, showing its historical development and impact on Americana, and honoring players, managers, people who have made outstanding contributions to the game in some regard. Fin.

 

[FedEx227]

:jonesy:

The awesome reputation that comes from fan voting.

You have seen the starting lineups on some of those All Star Games, right? You do realize Gil Meche and Mark Redman made All Star Games based off the 1-player per team rule? It's like using Pro Bowls as a measurement when they count people that were initially voted in and all the people that got in later because those original people didn't really feel like going.

Sily. There's so many other things to look at, why look at how many times someone had a good half year?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

:jonesy:

The awesome reputation that comes from fan voting.

You have seen the starting lineups on some of those All Star Games, right? You do realize Gil Meche and Mark Redman made All Star Games based off the 1-player per team rule? It's like using Pro Bowls as a measurement when they count people that were initially voted in and all the people that got in later because those original people didn't really feel like going.

Sily. There's so many other things to look at, why look at how many times someone had a good half year?

Shut up, nerd.

Who is talking about Gil Meche or Mark Redman? Who did they keep out of the Hall of Fame because they sucked the least on a sucky team at the halfway point of the season?

Do tell.

You miss the forest for the trees, dweeb.

The perfect example of reputation surpassing ability was already mentioned...the Joe Namath of modern baseball, Derek Jeter.

 

[FirstTimer]

:jonesy:

The awesome reputation that comes from fan voting.

You have seen the starting lineups on some of those All Star Games, right? You do realize Gil Meche and Mark Redman made All Star Games based off the 1-player per team rule? It's like using Pro Bowls as a measurement when they count people that were initially voted in and all the people that got in later because those original people didn't really feel like going.

Sily. There's so many other things to look at, why look at how many times someone had a good half year?

While I see the point...I think the bigger picture is that Gil Meche wasn't making 10 consecutive All Star games. I would think a guy making multiple All Star games would mean a lot more in proper context and is worth more of a discussion than "Pff All Star games mean jack, Gil Meche made one once". Kind of the same principle behind while GG's may be flawed they can give an overall feel and if a guy wins a bunch of them it's more than likely telling you something relevant to the bigger picture and shouldn't be disregarded because Jeter has won a couple he shouldn't have.

I just think compeltely discounting a guy like Ken Griffey Jr's 13 All Star games or Ron Santo's 9 All Star games as an accomplishment because Gil Meche made one is rather odd and too large a step to take.

 

[nwfisch]

If I'm going to say one is/isn't worthy of Hall of Fame consideration/admittance, All-star games are worth noting, but that's it.

A player's stats have always been the determining factors regards to hall of fame admittance.

 

[NAHSTE]

Kind of the same principle behind while GG's may be flawed they can give an overall feel and if a guy wins a bunch of them it's more than likely telling you something relevant to the bigger picture and shouldn't be disregarded because Jeter has won five he shouldn't have.

Fixed.