Jack Morris or Mark Buehrle, who's better?

[Goober]

My roommate and I argued about this. I'll let you guys weigh in before I state my opinion.

Jack Morris: 3824 IP, 5.83 K/9, 3.27 BB/9, 0.92 HR/9, 3.90 ERA, 56.9 WAR

Mark Buehrle: 2679 IP, 5.11 K/9, 2.03 BB/9, 1.01 HR/9, 3.82 ERA, 48.2 WAR

Keep in mind that Morris played five more years then Buehrle did so far. Morris retired when he was 39, Buehrle is currently 33.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

It's pretty obvious you prefer Buehrle, because you are a pretty extreme SABR geek, and Morris has become the SABR community whipping boy over the years because of the "old school" mentality that he was 'winner' who 'won games' (most wins in the decade of the 80's) and did very well in big spots and in the postseason. Not sure why those things are bad, but they can't really be quantified by fancy STATS, so some discount those things, and as a result Morris is a pretty divisive figure in the old school vs new school debates.

Also, pitcher WAR is kind of goofy because it's based on a shitty stat. But I don't want to get into that again.

Buehrle is my favorite non Reds player of all time. He throws strikes and wastes no time on the mound. In a way, he also kicks SABR people in the nuts, because he's consistent as a clock and wins games without a lot of K's and with mediocre peripherals. He simply gets people to hit into outs.

I will give my opinion on this later.

 

[Villain]

I smell a trap.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

 

[FedEx227]

If Buehrle retired today, well, I'd still take Buehrle. Just a better, more dominating pitcher than Morris.

ERA+ tells the story of someone clearly above average among their peers while Morris is slightly above average. Lots of wins and all that, which is important, but when we're talking about who's "better" shouldn't factor that much.

Hard to tell these two apart much since a lot of their additional stats are similar and they were largely similar style pitchers. With that said, again, era-relative stats who a clear advantage towards Buehrle, who was able to have a lot of success in a tougher league and tougher ballpark than Morris ever endured.

Morris hurts himself by having around 6-7 mediocre years towards the back end of his career which really drag his overall numbers down but IMO can't be ignored when discussing a player. It'd be nice to pinpoint every guys peak and just speak to that (and Morris has a really, really awesome peak).

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If Buehrle retired today, well, I'd still take Buehrle. Just a better, more dominating pitcher than Morris.

ERA+ tells the story of someone clearly above average among their peers while Morris is slightly above average. Lots of wins and all that, which is important, but when we're talking about who's "better" shouldn't factor that much.

Hard to tell these two apart much since a lot of their additional stats are similar and they were largely similar style pitchers. With that said, again, era-relative stats who a clear advantage towards Buehrle, who was able to have a lot of success in a tougher league and tougher ballpark than Morris ever endured.

Morris hurts himself by having around 6-7 mediocre years towards the back end of his career which really drag his overall numbers down but IMO can't be ignored when discussing a player. It'd be nice to pinpoint every guys peak and just speak to that (and Morris has a really, really awesome peak).

This is pretty much it.

Morris had a better peak, but Buehrle is the better pitcher over the entire length of their careers.

Morris won 20 games three times, and led the league in strikeouts, but also walked more batters than Buehrle by a pretty large margin and had a bunch of bad years.

Buehrle is one of the best control pitchers since WW2. He has 23 wild pitches in his entire career. Morris has single years with more than that, led the league six times, and had over 200 for his career.

Buehrle blows Morris away in ERA+, which means he was better compared to his peers than Morris was to his.

Very comparable players, very close, but i'm taking Buehrle. More consistent, better control, just as durable (200+ innings every season of his career).

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Depends on what pitcher you are asking for...

More dominant pitcher and better at his "peak" is Morris.
Buehrle was a more consistent pitcher over his career though.

I'd probably side with Morris by a small margin, just because when comparing similar players (which they are), I tend to side with a player who was more dominant during their peaks.

Very good comparison though, because overall, both guys stack up pretty evenly.

 

[FedEx227]

If Jack Morris makes the Hall of Fame, open the flood gates for just about every slightly above average pitcher. You can reasonably argue that he deserves it for some of his merits, but you then understand that he immediately becomes one the worst modern era pitchers in the Hall.

 

[Senser81]

If Jack Morris makes the Hall of Fame, open the flood gates for just about every slightly above average pitcher. You can reasonably argue that he deserves it for some of his merits, but you then understand that he immediately becomes one the worst modern era pitchers in the Hall.

Who is more deserving of the HOF...Jack Morris or Phil Niekro?

Morris is like the baseball equivalent to Ken Stabler. Very memorable player, always played in big games, usually played well in those games, but also had a bunch of complete seasons where he was below-average to terrible.

That said, Morris is hard to quantify. People say that Morris had a higher peak than Buehrle, which is true, but it also makes it sound like Morris had a few highly effective seasons in the middle of his career, and was average in the other years. This is not the case. Morris was effective for a very long period of time. He went 17-7 in 1979 at age 24, then 13 years later he is 21-6. He was just very inconsistent (like Stabler).

 

[FedEx227]

Outside of 91, he really fell of a cliff and stayed down there for awhile.

I think people use a lot of bias when they talk about his big games. Mainly because he had ONE really, really, really awesome game. He had a ton of clunkers too. 1987 ALCS 8 IP, 6 ER and horrendous 4 games as a member of the Blue Jays in 1992.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Who is more deserving of the HOF...Jack Morris or Phil Niekro?

Morris is like the baseball equivalent to Ken Stabler. Very memorable player, always played in big games, usually played well in those games, but also had a bunch of complete seasons where he was below-average to terrible.

That said, Morris is hard to quantify. People say that Morris had a higher peak than Buehrle, which is true, but it also makes it sound like Morris had a few highly effective seasons in the middle of his career, and was average in the other years. This is not the case. Morris was effective for a very long period of time. He went 17-7 in 1979 at age 24, then 13 years later he is 21-6. He was just very inconsistent (like Stabler).

Strong cross sport comparison.

 

[Senser81]

Strong cross sport comparison.

Thanks. Buehrle is more like Ken Anderson.