MLB Network's Top 9 Shortstops of All Time

[FirstTimer]

9. Luke Appling

8. Barry Larkin

7. Derek Jeter

6. Arky Vaughn

5. Ozzie Smith

4. Ernie Banks

3. Cal Ripken Jr.

2. Alex Rodriguez

1. Honus Wagner

 

[nflman2033]

Would love to see criteria for how they came up with the list, ozzie smith unquestionably best defensive SS, terrible hitter

 

[FirstTimer]

Would love to see criteria for how they came up with the list, ozzie smith unquestionably best defensive SS, terrible hitter

Had to play majority of career post 1901.(Modern Era)

Had to play 1,000 games at SS

Took into account career accomplishments, numbers, defense, offense etc.

That's all the show really said at the start (from what I can recall).

The argument for Ozzie is that he went from a real offensive liability to in the first half of his career to from the ages of 30-39 hitting .275 and above quite a bit. His stolen base totals helped as well.

 

[nflman2033]

Also how long until we consider Arod a 3B,.he has got to be close to having more games at third than short.

Jeter vs Larkin is pretty Damn close especially when you take into account how much more offensive the game is now vs early in Larkins career, not saying Larkin is better, but its close

 

[nflman2033]

Had to play majority of career post 1901.(Modern Era)

Had to play 1,000 games at SS

Took into account career accomplishments, numbers, defense, offense etc.

That's all the show really said at the start (from what I can recall).

The argument for Ozzie is that he went from a real offensive liability to in the first half of his career to from the ages of 30-39 hitting .275 and above quite a bit. His stolen base totals helped as well.

Oh ok, yeah its pretty Damn close to what I would think

 

[FirstTimer]

Also how long until we consider Arod a 3B,.he has got to be close to having more games at third than short.

I think this show was from 2009 but their case was regardless of how many games he plays at 3B when he was at SS he was one of the best ever.

The best part was they showed Luke Appling going yard at 75 years old in an Old Timers game in 1982.

Awesome.

 

[Senser81]

Also how long until we consider Arod a 3B,.he has got to be close to having more games at third than short.

Jeter vs Larkin is pretty Damn close especially when you take into account how much more offensive the game is now vs early in Larkins career, not saying Larkin is better, but its close

If you consider Arod a 3B, then Ernie Banks spent a majority of his career at 1B.

To me, guys like Ripken, Larkin, Jeter, and Smith were true shortstops. Guys like Arod and Banks were hybrid players who played SS for part of their career but ended up playing longer at other positions. So its tough to compare the two groups...kinda like how people want to compare Shannon Sharpe's TE numbers to old TEs like Dave Casper when Sharpe never really had to block anyone and was essentially a #3 WR.

 

[FirstTimer]

http://deadspin.com/5787577/analyzing-the-trot-times-for-six-of-baseballs-greatest-home-runs

#2

 

[nflman2033]

If you consider Arod a 3B, then Ernie Banks spent a majority of his career at 1B.

To me, guys like Ripken, Larkin, Jeter, and Smith were true shortstops. Guys like Arod and Banks were hybrid players who played SS for part of their career but ended up playing longer at other positions. So its tough to compare the two groups...kinda like how people want to compare Shannon Sharpe's TE numbers to old TEs like Dave Casper when Sharpe never really had to block anyone and was essentially a #3 WR.

Yeah but like FT posted they just had to have 1,000 games at SS.

Pouring through numbers accomplishments and such I can not make much of a case for moving Larkin up any, but top 10 SS of all time is good enough for me, and if we throw out banks and Arod he is just outside top 5

 

[FirstTimer]

If you consider Arod a 3B, then Ernie Banks spent a majority of his career at 1B.

Banks' prime was spent at SS and same with Arod's so I think that carries a lot of weight.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Banks movevd to first because he started to age/break down?

Arod moving over because Jeter was already at SS in New York is also another interesting case.


I agree it's tough to compare the two groups though.

 

[Senser81]

Banks' prime was spent at SS and same with Arod's so I think that carries a lot of weight.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Banks movevd to first because he started to age/break down?

Arod moving over because Jeter was already at SS in New York is also another interesting case.


I agree it's tough to compare the two groups though.

True, both players spend their 21-30 age years at SS. At least Arod was a really good fielder...I think Banks was serviceable at best. Its difficult to rank because not only do you have to rank guys based on their fielding because SS is one of the most important defensive positions, but you also are comparing a guy like Banks who spent 1000 games at SS to a guy like Ripken who spent 2500 games at SS.

Banks played 9 years at SS...is that long enough to even consider him among the greats at his position, when other great players played more than twice as long? If so, do we then include Fred Lynn and Dale Murphy in the greatest OF discussion?

Having to play 1000 games at SS isn't really a meaningful criterion at all when you are talking about the greatest players of all-time.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Ripken, as usual, is too high. So is Ozzie. Otherwise, no gripes from me.

ARod would be #1 if he didn't move to 3B. Wagner has to be #1 otherwise.

 

[Senser81]

Ripken, as usual, is too high. So is Ozzie. Otherwise, no gripes from me.

ARod would be #1 if he didn't move to 3B. Wagner has to be #1 otherwise.

Ozzie gets bonus points for being the last celebrity spokesperson for the Atari 2600. (Its under $50! $50? Thats right!)

Ozzie was a great player and a deserving HOFer, but, IMO, not all that much seperates him from guys like Vizquel, Davey Concepcion, and Luis Aparicio. Yet Smith's name is always near the top of these all-time lists, while the other guys are never to be found.

 

[FirstTimer]

Ripken, as usual, is too high. So is Ozzie. Otherwise, no gripes from me.

ARod would be #1 if he didn't move to 3B. Wagner has to be #1 otherwise.

Where would you put Cal?

 

[Senser81]

Where would you put Cal?

Above Shawon Dunston, below Alan Trammell.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Where would you put Cal?

Behind Larkin for sure.

Behind Arky Vaughn for sure.

Arky Vaughn once led the league in BA, OBA, SLG, & OPS in the same season. As a SS, before the 90's. Think about that. He led the league in major categories 17 times!

Larkin beats Ripken in the slash lines, and was a superior fielder and baserunner.

The only edge Ripken has on guys like this are HR's. And despite the huge HR edge, he falls behind in OPS, OPS+, and even SLG he is pretty much even or behind.

 

[FirstTimer]

Behind Larkin for sure.

Behind Arky Vaughn for sure.

Arky Vaughn once led the league in BA, OBA, SLG, & OPS in the same season. As a SS, before the 90's. Think about that. He led the league in major categories 17 times!

Larkin beats Ripken in the slash lines, and was a superior fielder and baserunner.

The only edge Ripken has on guys like this are HR's. And despite the huge HR edge, he falls behind in OPS, OPS+, and even SLG he is pretty much even or behind.

I was shocked it took so long for Vaughn to make the HOF. They said it was because of a tragic early death. Which I found odd because most other greats who died so young MLB was falling all over themselves to shove into the HOF. Meanwhile Vaughn was forgotten about for 30 some years.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Smith and Ripken ahead of Arky Vaughn is mental to me. Especially Smith.

Vaughn slash: .318/.406/.453/.859.

Plus, look at all the extra outs Cal produced with his massive GDP numbers. Vaughn never hit into ten in a single season!

When you factor in Cal's hidden outs with his GDP and horrendous SB%, his adjusted OBA drops even further.

 

[FirstTimer]

Smith and Ripken ahead of Arky Vaughn is mental to me. Especially Smith.

Vaughn slash: .318/.406/.453/.859.

Plus, look at all the extra outs Cal produced with his massive GDP numbers. Vaughn never hit into ten in a single season!

When you factor in Cal's hidden outs with his GDP and horrendous SB%, his adjusted OBA drops even further.

I see your point on offense..but how was Vaughn regarded on defense?

Just curious more than anything. My lame baseball ass hadn't heard much on him before the show. I knew who he was and that he was really fucking good..but not much in the details.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I have no clue.

He has a positive number for his fWAR, and his Fld% and RF/G were both higher than the league average. Based on those numbers, I guess we should assume he was, at minimum, a good fielder.

Of course, those same numbers will tell you Clint Barmes is a good fielder (blech!), so who knows, but it's really all we have to work with. I think it's safe to say he wasn't a bad fielder.