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NFLPA cites 1996 smash-for-cash program

Maynard

stupid ass titles
its not like we didnt know that these types of things took place since the beginning of time on all levels of football and still take place on some level today. Maybe now people like warner2bruce will stop thinking goodell is such a great guy and stop think that Vilma and the saints are the only ones to do ever do something like this. the nfl and goodell are hypocrites for trying to pretend they care about player safety and trying to act like what the saint did was so evil when its been going on forever. All the NFL is doing is trying to protect themselves from future lawsuits...as usual


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8...rt-cites-nfl-permitted-incentive-program-1996

NEW ORLEANS -- The NFL Players Association filed papers in federal court pointing out that the NFL permitted a 1996 incentive program for big hits funded by then-Green Bay defensive lineman Reggie White.

In papers filed Thursday in U.S. District Court, the union questioned why NFL commissioner Roger Goodell should now be able to suspend former Saints linebacker Scott Fujita for offering then-New Orleans teammates rewards for big plays during the 2009 season.

The filing cited media reports about White's "smash-for-cash" program that paid $500 for big plays, including big hits.

Saints Bounty Scandal
An NFL investigation found the New Orleans Saints operated a bounty system that rewarded 22 to 27 players for hard hits and for injuring opposing players. Profile »

The reports, now nearly 16 years old, include players from other teams discussing similar pools climbing into the thousands of dollars. In one report by ESPN, Troy Vincent, then a defensive back with Philadelphia, discusses a similar player-funded incentive program run by Eagles players.

Vincent now works for the NFL as a vice president overseeing player engagement.

In the reports, an NFL spokesman is quoted as saying the incentive programs are permitted as long as players use their own money and the amounts players pledge are not exorbitant.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said Thursday night that the league would defer comment to its own forthcoming arguments in court.

The NFLPA seized upon the NFL's 1996 stance particularly as it related to Fujita, who Goodell suspended for one game this season even though he said he could not verify that Fujita participated in the bounty program the league says the Saints ran for three seasons from 2009-11. Goodell said Fujita, now with Cleveland, was still guilty of violating NFL rules by offering his own incentives for big plays and also, as a team leader, by failing to try to stop to the cash-for-hits program overseen by then-Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

The union said that while the NFL's player safety goals may have evolved since 1996, it is unfair to punish players for behavior it previously permitted without formally spelling out that such behavior is no longer allowed.

"The fact that the NFL has a different agenda today than it did in 1996 cannot change the unequivocal language of the NFL Constitution & Bylaws, which has never prohibited this type of behavior," the union wrote in its legal briefs. "The commissioner's attempt to nonetheless suspend and scapegoat Mr. Fujita for conduct -- incentivizing undisputed, legitimate plays -- never before punished or prohibited by the NFL not only violates the 'essence of the (collective bargaining) agreement' but further demonstrates the commissioner's evident partiality."

Fujita is one of four players suspended by Goodell in the NFL's bounty probe of the Saints. Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma was suspended for the season, Saints defensive end Will Smith for four games and free agent defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove for seven games. None of the suspensions are currently in effect because they all have been appealed within the framework of the NFL's labor agreement, and Goodell has set hearings for those appeals this Tuesday in New York.

However, all four players also have asked U.S. District Judge Ginger Berrigan to throw out Goodell's disciplinary rulings on the grounds that he has demonstrated a bias against the players in his handling the bounty investigation, thereby violating the players' industrial due process rights. The players also have questioned the credibility of the league's evidence in the case or the witnesses upon which the league's investigation relied.

The NFL has said the union agreed that the commissioner would be able to serve as the lone arbitrator for matters deemed detrimental to football and that the evidence in the case is strong enough to support Goodell's rulings.

Still, the players have argued that Goodell should be barred from handling discipline in the bounty probe and that a neutral arbitrator should be appointed, an argument repeated by the union in its latest filing.

"It is only a neutral of unquestioned integrity who can restore public confidence in this process and mitigate the damage which the NFL's handling of `bounty-gate has inflicted upon the game," the NFLPA said.

Meanwhile, former Minnesota Vikings defensive lineman Jimmy Kennedy submitted a sworn declaration stating he "knew nothing of any alleged 'bounty' program' that the Saints had in place on quarterback Brett Favre when they faced the Vikings in the 2009-10 NFC title game.

Kennedy's declaration states that he had only told teammates that the Saints were hitting Minnesota players "like there's money on the table," which was his way of urging teammates to match New Orleans' intensity.

Kennedy said NFL investigator Joe Hummel called him to ask about a Saints bounty program, and he told Hummel he did not know anything about it.

"Contrary to the league's claims, I did not act as a 'whistleblower,'" Kennedy stated.

An NFL memo from the bounty probe has indicated that Kennedy told then-Vikings coach Brad Childress about a Saints bounty on Favre after discussing it with Hargrove, his former teammate in St. Louis.
 
:lol:

So because it was cool in 1996(under different league leadership) it should be cool now?

Talk about a weak argument.
 
Was the NFL facing class action lawsuits from former players and their spouses alleging that the NFL is negligent of player safety in 1996?

Oh, they weren't?

Was Roger Goodell the NFL commissioner in 1996?

Oh, he wasn't?

So in other words, this is a completely different situation and set of circumstances?

Oh, ok.
 
Also, I don't know why I'm even doing this, but from the article Maynard linked to but probably only read the first three sentences of:

In the reports, an NFL spokesman is quoted as saying the incentive programs are permitted as long as players use their own money and the amounts players pledge are not exorbitant.

The Saints were divvying up money from coaches, and the monetary amounts were 10-20k. I don't know what their definition of "exorbitant" is, but 20k seems like a lot to me.
 
The argument the NFLPA is using isn't that what happened in 1996 justifies what the Saints did, but instead that the NFL's Constitution & Bylaws has never prohibited pay for performance.
 
The argument the NFLPA is using isn't that what happened in 1996 justifies what the Saints did, but instead that the NFL's Constitution & Bylaws has never prohibited pay for performance.

Reminds me of the scene in A Few Good Men where Tom Cruise snatches the Marine Handbook from Kevin Bacon's hands and asks the witness "Can you show me in this book where it says the cafeteria is?"

Lets use some common sense here.
 
Reminds me of the scene in A Few Good Men where Tom Cruise snatches the Marine Handbook from Kevin Bacon's hands and asks the witness "Can you show me in this book where it says the cafeteria is?"

Lets use some common sense here.

I agree, but I just wanted to point that out. At this point the NFLPA is grasping at straws, but this is what lawyers do.....they try to find/create loopholes.
 
Reminds me of the scene in A Few Good Men where Tom Cruise snatches the Marine Handbook from Kevin Bacon's hands and asks the witness "Can you show me in this book where it says the cafeteria is?"

Lets use some common sense here.

A lot of times when you start a post saying it reminds you of a scene.. I don't know what the fuck you are talking about. This however... was beautiful.
 
The argument the NFLPA is using isn't that what happened in 1996 justifies what the Saints did, but instead that the NFL's Constitution & Bylaws has never prohibited pay for performance.


thank you...apparently the previous posters, Nasty, couldnt see that and as usual, Nasty, focused on my opinion which was nothing more than bait for warner....but nasty likes to ride warners coat tails so its all good....case in point Kozma2Holliday4InfieldFly

i agree with your comment about how its grasping at straws.
 
Let's recap.

-Maynard thinks he's found some sort of 'smoking gun' to win a three month old argument (a strawman argument at that, because I don't think anybody ever disagreed that bounties have existed to varying degrees forever)

-Maynard promptly gets thrashed by literally everybody in the thread

-Maynard tries to save face by using the old "guys, I was trolling" routine

-Maynard still fucking sucks
 
thank you...apparently the previous posters, Nasty, couldnt see that and, as usual, Nasty, focused on my opinion which was nothing more than bait for warner....but nasty likes to ride warners coat tails so its all good....case in point Kozma2Holliday4InfieldFly

i agree with your comment about how its grasping at straws.

a-few-good-men-560-1.jpg


"...these are the facts of the case, and they are indisputable..."
 
Let's recap.

-Maynard thinks he's found some sort of 'smoking gun' to win a three month old argument (a strawman argument at that, because I don't think anybody ever disagreed that bounties have existed to varying degrees forever)

-Maynard promptly gets thrashed by literally everybody in the thread

-Maynard tries to save face by using the old "guys, I was trolling" routine

-Maynard still fucking sucks


:yeah:
 
It seems to me this play for pay program from 1997 has less to do with the Saints and more of a benefit to all of the former NFL players suing the NFL, because it is obvious that the NFL knew about these programs then.
 
Heeeeere we go...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...hat-pay-for-performance-was-accepted-in-1996/

On Thursday, the NFLPA mentioned in a court filing an ESPN segment from 1996 titled “Smash for Cash.” PFT has obtained a copy of the video, a feature from Andrea Kramer included in the extended NFL Countdown that aired on the day of Super Bowl XXXI.

Here’s the full transcript of the segment seven-minute segment, which featured a variety of players from separate interviews that had been conducted.

Andrea Kramer: “Many players around the league earn bonus money by virtue of their achievements. But it’s not usually courtesy of their own teammates. But around the league, there’s a little-known but very popular incentive program players call ‘Smash for Cash.’”

Reggie White: “We have guys get interceptions, fumbles. I came out with like nine thousand and some dollars I had to pay out, because I was paying $500 each big play.”

Kramer: “‘Smash for Cash,’ giving cash bonuses for big plays and hits made during a game. Teams used to pay them money, but now that’s a violation of the salary cap. So players contribute their own money. But when the pot ran dry last year in Green Bay, Reggie White established his own incentive program, much to the dismay of his wife.”

White: “I went home and told her, I said, ‘Sarah, can you write me a check for like $9,500.’ ‘What for?’ I said, ‘Well, I promised I’d pay guys $500 apiece if they made big hits.’ ‘Did anyone else do it with you?’ ‘No.’ ‘No?’!”

Troy Vincent: “You know, everyone likes money.”

Lawrence Taylor: “There is a dollar figure on everything you do in the game of football.”

Jeff Lageman: “We create pots in our defensive line room of who gets the first sack of the game.”

Cris Dishman: “If you knock someone completely off their feet and they land on their butt first. That’s the big hit pot.”

Gary Plummer: “It could mean $300 or $400 for a sack. It could mean $500 or $600 for an interception of a caused fumbled.”

Cris Dishman: “In one week you can win up to $1,000.”

Alfred Williams: “These are just individual things that guys just challenge each other with. It happens all the time in every place that I’ve played in.”

Andrea Kramer, to Ken Norton: “Do guys take it seriously?”

Norton: “No question about it. That’s $500. That’s untaxed. I mean, that’s pretty good.”

Andrea Kramer: “Different teams have different rules. For example, rather than create a pot, Eagle defensive backs and linebackers have to pay each other when they make a big play.”

Vincent: “Game day is $50 [per player] for an interception, $100 for a touchdown. . . .”

Kramer: “Sometimes before there’s a pot, there’s a concept, like the Beaver.”

Lageman: “In New York we had this huge emphasis on caused fumbles, and what we had was [a] thing called ‘the Beaver.’ Not only did you get a pot from the players if you caused a fumble, which is a ‘Beaver,’ but you also got to carry ‘the Beaver’ for a week, which was a stuffed animal on a rope. Beaver, as you know, I don’t know if you know or not, if you don’t watch Discovery it’s the most diligent worker of the animal kingdom. And so we said to cause fumbles you’ve got to be a diligent worker and you’ve got to focus in on it.”

Andrea Kramer: “Pete Carroll began this concept with the Jets, and brought it with him to San Francisco.”

Pete Carroll: “The beaver has always been known as the most diligent worker in the animal kingdom.”

Ken Norton: “The beaver is the hardest working animal in the kingdom.”

Gary Plummer, to Norton: “In the animal kingdom. The most diligent, hard-working animal in the animal kingdom.”

Greg Robinson: “From everything I understand, just going back to my schooldays, a beaver is known as the most diligent worker in the animal kingdom, noted for his ingenuity.”

Andrea Kramer: “Greg Robinson was Pete Carroll’s defensive coordinator in New York, before taking the same job with the Broncos. And although his definition of the beaver sounds strangely familiar, Robinson denies using a stuffed animal as a motivational technique in Denver.”

Kramer (watching tape with Robinson): “What do you use this for?

Greg Robinson: “Use this for? You’re referring to?”

Kramer: “The stuffed animal.”

Robinson: “The stuffed animal? There’s no stuffed animal around here.”

Bill Romanowski: “I think it was our first game, and I knew nothing about ‘the Beaver,’ and sure enough Greg Robinson pulls out this little stuffed animal. And we’re getting ready to go out on the field, and he’s saying, ‘The Beaver is out! The Beaver is out!’ And I’m looking at this guy like he’s nuts.

Andrea Kramer, to Greg Robinson: “You’re denying any knowledge of using this for motivational purposes?”

Robinson: “Uh, absolutely.”

Alfred Williams: “He carries it in his pocket and then, you know, before he goes on the field he has a puppet beaver and [laughter] . . . I can’t believe you asked me this, man, but it was great. It’s great.

Pete Carroll: “Probably the all-time ‘beave’ was the one on the goal line against Buffalo.”

Andrea Kramer: “That hit led to an appearance by the Beaver in the 49ers’ game film.”

Gary Plummer: “As soon as the hit occurred and of course Lee Woodall picked it up and ran it back for a touchdown, the next thing spliced in is about a 10-second clip of the most diligent, hard-working animal in the animal kingdom. The beaver.”

Andrea Kramer: “As the pot gets richer, 11 men go scurrying like a beaver, trying to force a fumble. Sometimes forgetting the fundamentals.”

Jeff Lageman: “We were in New York, we were playing Miami one time. And I think we had a pot — it rolled over from one game to the next — and the pot was at about five or six thousand dollars. And everybody puts in money. That was the worst tackling performances we ever had.”

Andrea Kramer, to Pete Carroll: “Do you remember that day?”

Carroll: “Yeah, a little overboard on the emphasis that day, yeah. That did happen.”

Lageman: “It was pathetic. Everybody was going for the ball.”

Andrea Kramer: “The question is why? Why do a couple of hundred dollars matter to players making millions?”

Junior Seau: “It’s not the money. It’s the ego.”

Troy Vincent: “The ego gets involved.”

Cris Dishman: “It’s the pride factor.”

Lamar Lathon: “I think the biggest thing is just winning. Being able to say, ‘Hey, you owe me. Give me my money.’”

Dishman: “Oh, we collect. It’d be right after the game. And trust me I had all the money pimped on my chest to let everyone know that I won the pot.”

Lageman: “I mean it’s ridiculous. Guys are making probably $100,000 a week, some of these guys. And they’re getting cranked up over a couple hundred dollars cash pot. I mean, big deal.”

Kramer: “What does the NFL have to say about this incentive program that players insist is not a bounty? A league spokesman said the ‘Smash for Cash’ program is within the rules as long as players use their own monies, the amounts are not exorbitant, and the payments are not for illegal hits.”

Now that the guy who was the Commissioner in 1996 will be presiding over the bounty appeal hearing, look for the “Smash for Cash” feature to be shown on October 30, when the players argue that they’re being punished for something that not very long ago in the grand scheme of things the NFL expressly condoned.
 
Lots of stuff in there for sacks, interceptions, fumbles, etc. for totals in the hundreds.

Not seeing anything about, I don't know, things like $20,000 for taking out a QB via injury.

If this is what the union is counting on with the Saints appeals, it's not very compelling.

Also, i'm not sure how something that was within the rules in 1996 matters when talking about rules that were broken in 2009. In fact, the league even told the Saints to cut the shit, and they continued.

This would be like James Harrison basing an appeal on the idea that Chuck Bednarik & Dick Butkus made similar hits in 1960. Who cares? What you did is against the rules now.
 
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