Old managers and old players?

[Slateman]

I'm sure you all know this, but I'm a huge Nationals fan. I have been thrilled to watch Bryce Harper light it up. But I was equally interested in Tyler Moore being called up.

While Bryce has gotten playing time, Moore has all of 9 innings of play. Moore was actually the more established hitter in Triple A, hitting .270 last year with 30 bombs. Guy is a slugger in the Adam Dunn mold.

Jayson Werth broke his wrist on Sunday. He's out for like 12 weeks. I thought this was the chance that Moore needed. Harper to RF/CF, Ankiel to CF/RF and Moore would finally get some regular at bats in LF.

But instead, Davey Johnson has elected to go with a platoon of Xavier Nady and Roger Bernadina in LF.

My mind = Blown. Not even discussion about playing Tyler Moore in LF. Or even Steve Lombardozzi (who's been hitting .305/.379/.356 on the season).

Read around a little, talked with some friends and we got on to Jim Leyland. For those who don't know, yesterday, Doug Fister went 7 innings, gave up no runs, 4 hits and no walks. Oh and had a pitch count of 73 pitches. For whatever reason, Leyland yanks him and puts in Phil Coke. Coke holds. Leyland then goes to the 38 year old Octavio Dotel, who proceeds to blow the game.


It's got me thinking ... is there a point where managers are simply too old? And why does it seem that some managers, particularly old ones, continue to go to the veteran pool? Despite quite a bit of evidence to show that the veteran simply isn't producing.

 

[MVPete]

I could not believe that meltdown in Seattle last night. Maybe someone told him to take Fister out early because he just came off the DL, but the guy was in such a zone I wouldn't doubt he was pissed he was pulled. Coke comes in and makes quick work in the 8th, and probably should of just stayed in for the ninth and had Dotel ready to go. Benoit and Valverde had the night off.

 

[FirstTimer]

Two different things at work here. Some managers are just stupid with using vets. (See Baker, Dusty) and the Fister example is something we have discussed here before with managers being so robotic with the way they manage the bullpen and end of game situations.

"OH SHIT! It's the 8th inning. Better use my set up guy, for a reason I'm not really sure of. ............... 9th inning is closer time. Don't ask why. It just is!"

 

[Senser81]

Yeah, I think its not really a case of baseball managers being "too old"...I think its just baseball managers in general following illogical strategies 'because thats what the book says to do'.

I think Bill James did an article on how good teams will collapse at the end of the year and blow 10-15 game leads, and the main reason for all these collapses throughout history is that the manager would insist on playing veteran players that weren't producing instead of using younger players who had proven to be better during the year. Ozzie Guillen did this a ton during his last few years in Chicago.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Jim Leyland is a lot like Tony Larussa. Both consistently do wacky, head scratching things, but both of them win no matter where they go, so you have to give them a pass and let them do what they do.

With that said, I can't kill Leyland for pulling Fister, because he was fresh off of the DL. If Dotel gets the job done, nobody is talking about this today. Like others have said, taking out Coke was just Leyland doing Manager 101. Setup man, closer.

As for Davey Johnson playing two veterans over a young player in LF, in May, when you are leading a division, is a petty complaint IMO. I think Johnson is one of the elite managers in the game. Again, he wins wherever he goes. He's giving tons of playing time to a 19-year old, so to be critical of him for not playing a middling prospect like Lombardozzi when he is already playing Harper is not a great criticism in my opinion. If the team was 10 games out, I think you would have a better argument.

 

[Slateman]

Jim Leyland is a lot like Tony Larussa. Both consistently do wacky, head scratching things, but both of them win no matter where they go, so you have to give them a pass and let them do what they do.

With that said, I can't kill Leyland for pulling Fister, because he was fresh off of the DL. If Dotel gets the job done, nobody is talking about this today. Like others have said, taking out Coke was just Leyland doing Manager 101. Setup man, closer.

As for Davey Johnson playing two veterans over a young player in LF, in May, when you are leading a division, is a petty complaint IMO. I think Johnson is one of the elite managers in the game. Again, he wins wherever he goes. He's giving tons of playing time to a 19-year old, so to be critical of him for not playing a middling prospect like Lombardozzi when he is already playing Harper is not a great criticism in my opinion. If the team was 10 games out, I think you would have a better argument.

I'd agree with you except that the two LF options he provided are barely hitting more than Lombo, combined. More importantly, Lombo seems to be able to work a walk, something neither Nady nor Bernadina can do.

And I think it's dumb to call up a prospect before September if you aren't going to play them regularly. You're, essentially, taking away at bats that they can use to develop further.

Nationals are a team that can't score runs. Eventually, their starting pitching is going to come down to earth and the team will fall in the standings. They keep talking that they're going to shut down Strasburg. I don't expect Wang to last a season. Which means or rotation will go from awesome to .... above average. Then the poor offense will rear it's head and they will end up just short of the Wild Card. Meanwhile, Nady and Bernadina will have gotten a ton of at bats and done nothing.

Both Nady and Bernadina have proven they aren't starter material. Why not take a shot on a young guy who still has more potential than proven stats? Are we seriously worried that Tyler Moore or Steve Lombardozzi will hit worse than .119/.161/.186 (or even his last year's stats of .248/.287/.359). Take a shot on one of them. They've maxed out Triple A pitching. There's nothing for them to really prove down there.

 

[PEYMAN18]

On Leyland last night, I don't think he should be getting the blame as he has been.

Fister did throw only 73 pitches, and was lights out too, but Monday was his first game back from being injured so pulling him after 7 innings isn't that big of a deal imo.

Then after Coke threw flawlessly in the 8th the Tigers were set up to face 2 right handed batters and one left handed. Coke is a left handed pitcher and maybe not has fared as well as he did in the 8th.

Dotel on the other hand is a right handed pitcher that has closing experience. Not to mention the only lefted handed batter he would have to face was Ichiro who is 1 for 11 against Dotel. So at the time, Leyland probably thought Dotel would fare well and was the best choice in the 9th. Which obviously didn't work out well for the Tigers, but hindsight is 20-20 and it wasn't as bad of decision as it would seemed to be.

Maybe if the Tigers would actually be the big hitting club like they are supposed to be they wouldn't put themselves in these types of situations

 

[EmpireWF]

Terry Collins has been a godsend to the Mets and has gotten a lot out of a poor roster & boatloads of injuries the past two years.

He's the same age as Dusty.

 

[Villain]

I remember the Dodgers being in the position with Furcal and Gordon last year. Dodgers were down so much and Furcal had been hurt so Mattingly/Colletti said fuck it, bring up Gordon and trade Furcal. I'm still waiting on Adam Kennedy to get cut...

 

[Slateman]

Rizzo has done a great job with the roster, except for not getting the bat we needed in the offseason.

I guess I'm just being an overly passionate fan, but the Nats need to get off to a great start. Especially with the pitching like this. No way Strasburg, Zimmermann, Gonzalez, and Detwiler keep this pace up. They're going to come back down to earth. Then the games the Nats are winning 2-1 are going to end up being 4-2 losses.

It's also the way that Johnson kept running out Matt Stairs last year instead of just making a clean cut. Some guys, some years, don't have it. It's not like the Nats have invested a huge amount in Nady. I understood playing Werth everyday. Even with his poor hitting, he was still getting on base and he still played good defense. Nady is doing none of these things. Bernadina is okay defensively but poor at the plate.

Seems to me they got this far by using their young players (Stras, Gio, Zimmernmann, Zimmerman, Espinosa, Harper, ect). Why all of the sudden do we have to go to the veteran who hasn't produced squat in 600 ABs

 

[ThomasTomasz]

Teams are afraid to take the risk. I mean, is Lombardozzi really going to do much worse than two platoon-players (at best.) I would much rather take the chance in hopes of getting some production than to settle for the typical production from the vets. I guess the risk is losing options and promoting a player too early, but the Nats just did that with Harper, and at some point, you've got to stop babying players and give them a shot.

 

[Slateman]

Not that I'm keeping track or anything, but Espinosa was 0-4 with 3Ks, Bernadina was 0-4 with 2Ks ...

 

[Woy]

I remember the Dodgers being in the position with Furcal and Gordon last year. Dodgers were down so much and Furcal had been hurt so Mattingly/Colletti said fuck it, bring up Gordon and trade Furcal. I'm still waiting on Adam Kennedy to get cut...

Thanks for that. :motte: