• Rules and regulations here: http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?133219-VSN-Secret-Santa-Donation-Drive-Raffle-Waffle-Maynard-is-Awful&p=2346085#post2346085
  • We have just launched a new VSN Amazon Store. This new store will allow you to order games (including PC downloads) and anything else you want from Amazon and help VSN out at the same time! You get the exact same deals and pre-order bonuses through our store front as you do from Amazon so please bookmark this link and use it when you are shopping at Amazon.com - [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/"][COLOR="#0000FF"][U]VSN Amazon Store[/U][/COLOR][/URL] Here are some direct links to pre-order the major upcoming titles- [B][SIZE=4][COLOR="#0000FF"]PlayStation 4[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGA9WK2"]PlayStation 4 500GB Console[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HVBPRUO"]PlayStation 4 Gold Wireless Headset[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGA9X9W"]PlayStation 4 DualShock 4 Wireless Controller[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGAA3S2"]PlayStation 4 Camera[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DCBDNW6"]Final Fantasy XIV: A REALM REBORN[/URL] - April 14th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00J128FPA"]Final Fantasy XIV: A REALM REBORN Collectors Edition[/URL] - April 14th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IMVRVC4"]Trials Fusion[/URL] - April 15th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GG4BBUM"]MLB 14: The Show[/URL] - May 6th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DHF39KS"]Wolfenstein: The New Order[/URL] - May 20th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BI83EVU"]Watch Dogs[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DYAQHTQ"]Watch Dogs Limited Edition[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00I0574EW"]Murdered Soul Suspect[/URL] - June 3rd [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DHF39HQ"]The Elder Scrolls Online[/URL] - June 30th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGA9ZZ4"]Drive Club[/URL] - September 30th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GZ1GUSY"]Tomb Raider Definitive Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00H5V9S6E"]Rayman Legends - Standard Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00C27SCC2"]Thief[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HD4R5YU"]Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes Standard Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGAA0SU"]inFAMOUS Second Son Limited Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FYIXMHQ"]inFAMOUS Second Son Collectors Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00D2ZK1IG"]Dying Light[/URL] [B][SIZE=4][COLOR="#0000FF"]PlayStation 3[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00B0JALUE"]PlayStation 3 500GB Console[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00AEX81SG"]PlayStation 3 250GB Console[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GY4OAIE"]LEGO The Hobbit[/URL] - April 8th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00I9UVY30"]FIFA 2014 World Cup Brazil[/URL] - April 15th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00ICWO2ZW"]Darksiders Collection[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00ICWO2P2"]Red Faction Collection[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HQY8LRM"]Rambo The Video Game[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FRESXSA"]The Amazing Spider-Man 2[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CPKUV98"]Wolfenstein: The New Order[/URL] - May 20th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00J6DLPLK"]Drakengard 3[/URL] - May 20th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGHUS58"]Watch Dogs[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DYAQHZ0"]Watch Dogs Collectors Edition[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BG6ZHK0"]Murdered: Soul Suspect[/URL] - June 3rd [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IGHP28Y"]Transformers Rise of The Dark Spark[/URL] - June 24th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DNGQTFI"]Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Z[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00H4BBTCQ"]Tomb Raider - GOTY Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HNYWFMC"]Far Cry Compilation [/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00946FSIA"]Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HQY8LRM"]Rambo The Video Game[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FQFFPZO"]NASCAR '14[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DFT92MU"]Thief[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B0088MVP3S"]Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00ECOBFCC"]The LEGO Movie Videogame[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B006IOAHPK"]South Park: The Stick of Truth[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FDQQD52"]South Park: The Stick of Truth Grand Wizard Edition [/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00F6YD2AK"]Dark Souls II Black Armor Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00F6YD2FK"]Dark Souls II Collectors Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GJSUUC0"]Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes Standard Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00E44EZYA"]Ultra Street Fighter IV[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00D2ZK2O4"]Dying Light[/URL] [B][SIZE=4][COLOR="#0000FF"]Xbox One[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CMQTVUA"]Xbox One Console[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00MCLFZ1Y"]Xbox One Console Madden 15 Bundle[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IIHU44E"]Xbox One Console Titanfall Bundle[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HVPFGD8"]Titanfall Limited Edition Controller[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CMQTUSS"]Xbox One Wireless Controller[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IAVDQCK"]Xbox One Stereo Headset[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IAVDOS6"]Xbox One Stereo Headset Adapter[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GY4OB8S"]LEGO The Hobbit[/URL] - April 8th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CMQTUCE"]KINECT Sports: Rivals[/URL] - April 8th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IMVRVA6"]Trials Fusion[/URL] - April 15h [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FRESTZW"]The Amazing Spider-Man 2[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DHF39L2"]Wolfenstein: The New Order[/URL] - May 20th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CX8VY4S"]Watch Dogs[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DYAQI0E"]Watch Dogs Limited Edition[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00I0574CO"]Murdered Soul Suspect[/URL] - June 3rd [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IGH2HKU"]Transformers Rise of The Dark Spark[/URL] - June 24th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DHF39EO"]The Elder Scrolls Online[/URL] - June 30th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GZ1GUNO"]Tomb Raider Definitive Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DBCAS7E"]Zoo Tycoon[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00H5V9SLE"]Rayman Legends - Standard Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CYNTHA0"]Thief[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DB9JYFY"]Titanfall[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00G2HSX86"]Titanfall Collectors Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00HD4R5WC"]Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes Standard Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00D2ZK2MQ"]Dying Light[/URL] [B][SIZE=4][COLOR="#0000FF"]Xbox 360[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FATRKOK"]Xbox 360 250GB Holiday Value Console[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GZ9ESEE"]Xbox 360 250GB Console w/Halo 4, Darksiders II, Tomb Raider and Batman: Arkham City[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B003ZSP0WW"]Xbox 360 Wireless Controller[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DC9SWWE"]Titanfall[/URL] - April 8th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00G2HSWZU"]Titanfall Collectors Edition[/URL] - April 8th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GY4OBB0"]LEGO The Hobbit[/URL] - April 8th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00I9UVY7G"]FIFA 2014 World Cup Brazil[/URL] - April 15th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00ICWO2G6"]Darksiders Collection[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FRESY6G"]The Amazing Spider-Man 2[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00CPKUV7K"]Wolfenstein: The New Order[/URL] - May 20th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BGD6LMG"]Watch Dogs[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DYAQHNC"]Watch Dogs Limited Edition[/URL] - May 27th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00BG6ZHL4"]Murdered: Soul Suspect[/URL] - June 3rd [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IGHY7LC"]Transformers Rise of The Dark Spark[/URL] - June 24th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DNGQQUQ"]Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Z[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00H4BBVZQ"]Tomb Raider - GOTY Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DBCAT3W"]Fable Anniversary[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00946FSJ4"]Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FQFFQ2Q"]NASCAR '14[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DFT92EI"]Thief[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B0088MVP2Y"]Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00ECOBFA4"]The LEGO Movie Videogame[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B006IOAHTQ"]South Park: The Stick of Truth[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FDQQD6Q"]South Park: The Stick of Truth Grand Wizard Edition [/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00F6YD26Y"]Dark Souls II Black Armor Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00F6YD27I"]Dark Souls II Collectors Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GJSUXLS"]Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes Standard Edition[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00E44EZPE"]Ultra Street Fighter IV[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00D2ZK2RQ"]Dying Light[/URL] [B][SIZE=4][COLOR="#0000FF"]Wii U[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00GY4OAM0"]LEGO The Hobbit[/URL] - April 22nd [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00FRESQKU"]The Amazing Spider-man 2[/URL] - April 29th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DC7G2W8"]Mario Kart 8[/URL] - May 30th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00IGH1LJ8"]Transformers Rise of the Dark Spark[/URL] - June 24th [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00DC7O77A"]Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze[/URL] [URL="http://astore.amazon.com/vsngaming-20/detail/B00ECOAX34"]The LEGO Movie Videogame[/URL]
  • We are looking to possibly form a second XB1 Madden 15 league on VSN. Please visit the Sports Gaming subforum and post in the thread if you are interested.
  • There will be a site outage from 12 pm est till 3 am est
  • If you are having trouble accessing your account and don't remember your password, email help@virtualsportsnetwork.com and i'll get you an updated password for 2024.

Sorry Magic, Joey Ballgame Likely Staying In Queen City

Warner2BruceTD

2011 Poster Of The Year
Rumored to be around $200M or so. 10-years, but they might be tearing up old extension so that would be ten years from today, not ten additional years beyond 2013.

4:49pm: Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com hears that it's a ten-year deal and suggests that would mean ten years including the two already in place.

12:14pm: Votto confirmed to John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer that an extension is close. "I can't comment till it's done. You'll have to ask Walt [Jocketty, the GM]. It's a gray area"

FWIW, owner Bob Castellini says this will not stop the Reds from trying to re-sign Brandon Phillips. But he probably has to say that.
 
Wow, what a steal if true. Looks like they saved a million or two each year based on what he's actually worth.
 
Maybe getting $20M each of the next two years instead of $9.5M & $17M or whatever it is he is currently owed was enticing to him.
 
Even though Votto kept hinting that he would like to stay a Red for a long time, I absolutely LOVE that they got this deal done and out of the way long before it became an issue. I was kinda worried about the Dodgers too once Magic bought them. In today's game, it is rare to see a big star like this stay in a small market for life. So we got Joey locked up for the next 12 years for around 250 mil total. I ain't mad at all.

Great day to be a Reds fan
 
Keith Law not impressed.

In giving Joey Votto what we are reporting is a 10-year, $225 million extension, the Reds make what I can only assume is a panic signing, a full year and a half before free agency. It's an extension they almost certainly will regret before it reaches its halfway point.

:shotsfired:
 
Full Article for people who don't have ESPN Insider

In giving Joey Votto what we are reporting is a 10-year, $225 million extension, the Reds make what I can only assume is a panic signing, a full year and a half before free agency. It's an extension they almost certainly will regret before it reaches its halfway point.

The Votto extension follows on the heels of two other massive deals handed out to first basemen -- deals that commit to players deep into their 30s -- but while three wrongs might make a trend, it doesn't make the philosophy sane. The Albert Pujols (Angels) and Prince Fielder (Tigers) deals didn't actually make sense, but at least they were signed by large-payroll clubs playing in large markets. Votto's 10-year contract might look good for the next four or five seasons, but the back half of this deal threatens to be an albatross around the neck of a low-payroll team in a market that might generously be called middle of the pack.

The Reds already had Votto under contract for 2012 and 2013 at well-below-market salaries, so the extension won't begin in earnest until his age-30 season, by which point Votto will most likely have already peaked, meaning he'll spend virtually the entire extension declining from his peak. Granted, that peak -- about seven wins above replacement a year, per FanGraphs -- is extremely high, meaning Votto likely will still be a valuable player for the next four or five years, but he's also a slow-footed first baseman, one of the worst-aging categories of players. His value likely will drop by half before the extension is halfway through, perhaps sooner given the propensity of position players to miss more time due to injuries in their 30s.

The Reds' payroll last year was just more than $80 million, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts, so while we'd expect that to rise with industry inflation, Votto is likely to account for roughly 20 percent of the team's payroll once the extension kicks in, while providing ever-declining value on the field. The Cincinnati farm system is only middle of the road and after Devon Mesoraco has a gap before the next likely impact player arrives, meaning the Reds' window to win is probably now and 2013 but could start to close quickly after that.

I actually like Votto's chances to minimize the albatross years more than Fielder's or Pujols' chances, but that doesn't mean this deal makes any sense for the Reds. The history of deals this long is ugly. The history of corner position players playing into their mid- to late 30s is ugly. And the team isn't likely to ever run a payroll so high that carrying Votto while he's returning 50 cents on the dollar isn't a big deal.
 
If you want to keep/sign this caliber of player, you have to overpay (even though this was really market value).

Keith Law is claiming its a panic move, yet Law and the rest of the writers have been trashing the Reds for two years for not moving on a extension, and claimed it wasn't happening because the small market Reds could not afford him. Now that they got it done, all of a sudden its a panic move.

Let him walk, or trade him for minor league geeks, and you look bad. Sign him, and you look bad. That's how it goes. I'd prefer to have the potential future HOF'er on my side.

Reds now have Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Latos, Leake, Cozart, Mesoraco, Stubbs, Marshall locked up through 2015. Chapman through 2014. So Law's assertion of ZOMG PAYROLL!! makes no sense. Who is being squeezed out here? The 31 year old Phillips? Oh, but wait!

7:42pm: Talks between the Reds and Phillips continue following the Joey Votto extension, reports ESPN's Jim Bowden

w00t! Spend that money, Mr. Castallini!

It's a great day to be a Reds fan. Votto is a Red for life. Nobody gives a shit about 2020. He's signed through 39. He's an incredible player now. No reason to think he can't be a very good/great player until he's 36, 37. Law acts as if every player falls off the cliff at 30.

Can't shit in these cornflakes today, this is fantastic news.
 
With Joey Votto signed for the next X years and for millions of dollars, the Reds are banking on him producing quite a lot for them. I'm sure there is going to be much analysis regarding his projected WAR over the term of the deal, and how that corresponds to the dollars paid, and how those dollars paid correspond to the average dollars paid for similar production on the open market. Statistical analysis is really good for this kind of stuff. If Votto can keep up the pace of his production over a certain number of years and maintain a certain level of production towards the end of this deal, it will be a good one for the Reds. Our projections seem to think it's a pretty good bet.

Of course, there are those who will argue that statistical analysis fails to capture everything. The "intangibles" are not tallied in stat lines. A player's leadership qualities are impossible to measure by the alphabet soup of WAR and FIP. The way some players can intimidate the opposition, like Votto with his bat or Aroldis Chapman with his fastball, aren't isolated by spreadsheets. These are the kinds of arguments that some will make when disparaging the advanced metrics that are espoused by this humble writer and many others like him.

What they are failing to see, of course, is that these numbers have been put through their paces. Good old-fashioned science has proven that wOBA is much, much better at measuring the efficacy of a hitter than batting average or RBIs. The correlation between WAR and actual wins in the box score is very strong. It's not really a matter of debate anymore. That extra little bit that these metrics do not explain, the intangibles, is basically negligible. Most of the time.

**********

But then something like this happens. The numbers can project what Joey Votto is going to be worth over the life of this contract, and how much every dollar paid to him is worth in free market wins available, but in this rare instance they utterly fail at fully understanding the real value of Joey Votto the Red. This has been one of the league's most moribund, dysfunctional, impotent, and inconsequential franchises for a number of years. Most will shake their fists at past ownership groups and management teams who failed to develop resources and squandered what few were available. Most will also point fingers at a league that allows for such unbalanced distribution of resources. Not only did the Yankees develop a rare talent like Derek Jeter, but when he approached free agency there was never a question that he would be re-signed. This winter, with two years before scheduled free agency, Votto was one of the most talked-about impending free agents. The Reds could never afford a talent like his, not in a market like this.

But they signed him. Votto looks to be a Red for a very long time. And it's really difficult to say just what that means. I guess it means that the Reds will have retained the greatest talent they've developed since Barry Larkin. I guess it means that not only do they have a fair amount of money to invest in payroll, but that they are also investing it very well. I guess it means that the Votto Window is no longer applicable. This is Votto's House now, and he's staying for a very long time.

I think the most important thing it means though is that I have hope. We as fans of a mid-market franchise have labored under a delusion that to win, our team must work in cycles. Develop talent, deploy that talent, then sell off that talent for future talent when it gets too expensive. It's a cruel reality, we all said, but one that can be managed if the cards are played right. But it's not true. Not anymore. Signing Joey Votto to a long-term deal breaks that cycle. Not only can the Reds develop the talent, but they can retain that talent, too. They don't have to trade him for prospects or hope to get draft picks when he signs elsewhere. He's a Red, and he will be a Red for a long time. And I look forward to showing my future kids his statue on Crosley Terrace. WAR just can't measure the value of that.

clap gif
 
Back
Top