This is why I don't use Baseball Reference

[Goober]

Fantastic article from Baseball Prospectus, I'm not going to copy and paste because there are lots of graphs and formatting oddities.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17183

The article discusses the differences between DRS and other advanced fielding metrics. For those who don't know (Leftwich) these metrics rate players by the plays they make in the field, compared to their peers. If a player catches a ball that almost no one would, he is awarded heavily, if he fails to make an easy play he is penalized. Over large sample sizes they offer a very good measure of a players defense.

The article focuses on how DRS credits players for plays they make in shifts. UZR ignores these plays, and credits it to the manager for deciding to use a shift. As the picture I posted shows, shifts can sometimes lead to a player being very out of position. DRS gives Brett Lawrie credit for plays he makes in shallow right field, as a third baseman. Obviously every other third baseman doesn't make that play, so the award is big. UZR does not do this. The result?
DRS: 21 runs saved
UZR: 6.6 runs saved.

This heavily skews a players WAR also. Baseball Reference ranks Brett Lawrie as the fourth most valuable position player in MLB this year.

Discuss.

 

[Villain]

Is this like some baseball hipster point about being you better than baseball reference (above-the-stats, if you will)? I go on baseball reference to look up basic stats and contract info, but then I'm not fully versed on all the SABR stats and all that.

Shit, I must be a mainstream cunt. No PBR at the ball park for me.

 

[SuperKevin]

That defensive alignment is ridiculous

 

[ThomasTomasz]

Is this like some baseball hipster point about being you better than baseball reference (above-the-stats, if you will)? I go on baseball reference to look up basic stats and contract info, but then I'm not fully versed on all the SABR stats and all that.

Shit, I must be a mainstream cunt. No PBR at the ball park for me.

I'm with you there. I've learned quite a bit from being here from the guys that know SABR, but I'm not going to use them full-out in an argument because I'm still not quite as familiar with them.

As for the point of this thread.......Gooby, is the third baseman going to be charged in a negative fashion if the ball is hit right by the bag and he would normally have a play on it? That would dictate my feeling towards DRS, which I am not nearly as familiar with as UZR

 

[Goober]

Is this like some baseball hipster point about being you better than baseball reference (above-the-stats, if you will)? I go on baseball reference to look up basic stats and contract info, but then I'm not fully versed on all the SABR stats and all that.

Shit, I must be a mainstream cunt. No PBR at the ball park for me.

Bro I get my baseball statistics from the newspaper, just to be ironic. Read the article though.

 

[Goober]

I'm with you there. I've learned quite a bit from being here from the guys that know SABR, but I'm not going to use them full-out in an argument because I'm still not quite as familiar with them.

As for the point of this thread.......Gooby, is the third baseman going to be charged in a negative fashion if the ball is hit right by the bag and he would normally have a play on it? That would dictate my feeling towards DRS, which I am not nearly as familiar with as UZR

The article notes that Lawrie's DRS has been negatively impacted by Carlos Pena collecting three bunt singles down the third base line when Lawrie was in RF. However three plays made in right field probably help him more then those three bunts hurt him, and he has made more plays then that out of the shift.

 

[ThomasTomasz]

The article notes that Lawrie's DRS has been negatively impacted by Carlos Pena collecting three bunt singles down the third base line when Lawrie was in RF. However three plays made in right field probably help him more then those three bunts hurt him, and he has made more plays then that out of the shift.

At least there is a negative value to it, though taking into account the bunt singles from a slower runner (if that is taken into account) should be a huge negative. I'd definitely say I prefer UZR because of that, as the shift is a manager decision and not one a player makes.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

All defensive metrics are shit, and should only be used as general guides to confirm what your eyeball test tells you.

As badly as people want to be able to do it, you can not simply map out a baseball field into zones and "score" points for plays made/not made in those zones. There are a million variables that i'm not going to get into that all of you are smart enough to understand (positioning, jumps, how hard the ball is hit, etc).

Plus there is nothing to measure things like infielders who are good at cutting off ground balls from going into the outfield, outfielders who are great at cutting off base hits from rolling into the gap or down the line, oufielders with strong arms who prevent runners from taking extra bases, first baseman who catch errant throws and save extra base errors on plays that don't result in an out, etc etc, all things that do not result in outs, and generally all things that do not compute into these formulas. Fielding is not just about making catches and producing outs.

Fielding metrics that measure players against all other players have massive holes. A LF on a team full of fly ball pitchers is obviously going to make more plays than a LF on a team like the Indians who have a staff made up almost entirely of ground ball pitchers. A CF who plays for Houston will have more chances than a CF who plays for almost anybody else except maybe Arizona or the Polo Grounds. A SS playing behind Chen Mien Wang will see more grounders than Zack Cozart playing behind Mat Latos. Comparative fielding stats are deeply flawed.

tl;dr - they all suck

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

oh, and the reason I use BR is because the stat layouts are 1,000X more readable and easy on the eyes than FG. FG puts everything in a weird order and i'm too lazy to customize when all I want to know is how many doubles Curtis Granderson had in 2007 and I can get my answer in like 5 seconds from BR. If I want a geek stat I go to FG, but even then most of the stats I want to see can be found on B/R anyway, because nobody gives a fuck about SIERA or xFIP.

 

[Goober]

oh, and the reason I use BR is because the stat layouts are 1,000X more readable and easy on the eyes than FG. FG puts everything in a weird order and i'm too lazy to customize when all I want to know is how many doubles Curtis Granderson had in 2007 and I can get my answer in like 5 seconds from BR. If I want a geek stat I go to FG, but even then most of the stats I want to see can be found on B/R anyway, because nobody gives a fuck about SIERA or xFIP.

Disagree, the only thing that I think Fangraphs buries is WHIP. Overall fangraphs has a lot more information and it is presented in a cleaner look in my opinion.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Disagree, the only thing that I think Fangraphs buries is WHIP. Overall fangraphs has a lot more information and it is presented in a cleaner look in my opinion.

Most of that information is pretty useless, though. And for some reason, on the basic career stats page, they have don't the stats columns in the traditional order that they've been presented in since the beginning of time on baseball cards and media guides and such.

Yes, I know you can customize, but I don't want to design a website, I just want to know how many triples Moose Skowron had in 1950.

Everything from the font, the colors, the presentation and layout of the numbers, it all sucks on FG. Only thing FG is good for is if you need to find wOBA or want to create a custom chart/list or something.

 

[Senser81]

So you don't use baseball reference because Brett Lawrie once caught a batted ball.

Got it.

 

[FirstTimer]

Fangraph's layout is fucking awful.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Fangraph's layout is fucking awful.

Yeah, I mean, if you like the site that's fine, I like the site, but it really is a chore to find what you are looking for there.

 

[Bomberooski]

I'm jealous of you baseball nerds. Really am.

 

[FedEx227]

Yeah, I mean, if you like the site that's fine, I like the site, but it really is a chore to find what you are looking for there.

A lot of it is familiarity. If you know exactly what to look for FG is great, but I do agree that if you're looking for quick facts BR is superior.

 

[NAHSTE]

I have both sites in my bookmarks tab. I keep both open throughout the day, as you should.

One thing Fangraphs is better for is quickly accessing Minor League Stats. Good luck trying to go from a player's MLB page to his MiLB page quickly on a b-ref. FG lists them altogether which I prefer for active players. Also FG has certain stuff you can't find at b-ref f like PitchFX, and swing stats.


As for which WAR formula is better, well, they both have huge flaws right now IMO.

 

[MvP]

I refuse to use FanGraphs because of their layout/design. It's awful. I've also been using baseball-reference for over a decade now so it's natural for me to use them for quick stats.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I refuse to use FanGraphs because of their layout/design. It's awful. I've also been using baseball-reference for over a decade now so it's natural for me to use them for quick stats.

There are certain things you have to go to FG for, though.

The problem, is trying to remember which stat set whatever number you're looking for is on, so you end up fumbling through menus for 5 minutes before you find what you need.

 

[FirstTimer]

I have both sites in my bookmarks tab. I keep both open throughout the day, as you should.

One thing Fangraphs is better for is quickly accessing Minor League Stats. Good luck trying to go from a player's MLB page to his MiLB page quickly on a b-ref. FG lists them altogether which I prefer for active players. Also FG has certain stuff you can't find at b-ref f like PitchFX, and swing stats.


As for which WAR formula is better, well, they both have huge flaws right now IMO.

You mean the tedious process of clicking the word "Minors"?