Top 100 Revisited

[Warner2BruceTD]

Was thinking about this today. List was largely put together in 2009.

If I re did the Top 100 right now, I'd have Tanahashi third, behind Misawa & Kobashi. Fair or unfair?

Also, Okada would be in the Top 50 at minimum.

I'd say Minoru Suzuki would now be on the list. Maybe Lesnar. Maybe Ambrose. Tozawa would be on it now for sure. Suwama, who I probably overlooked the first time around. Blue Panther I whiffed on as well. Gargano?

Punk moves up significantly.

Have to seriously consider Cena. He's hard though, because he is generally carried by better guys. But his catalog of great matches can no longer be ignored. He's better than Sting. Sting was on the list.

Daisuke Sekimoto's rise came after I created the list. He'd be on now for sure. Kenny Omega would have to be considered.

After watching a ton of Brad Armstrong when he died, hard to keep him off.

Also, you can all apologize for doubting Bobby Fish. Dude is the truth. Glad he's getting his due and a proper push.

Ziggler? I say not quite yet. Very short run of great stuff, now he's in idgaf mode. Go Shiozaki, perhaps. Yujiro Takahashi merits a look.

Generico/Zayn moves up. Way up. Chris Hero probably moves down. Roddy Strong, trending down. Neither have done a ton since, many move up. Elgin now in? I probably like Elgin's body of work more than somebody like Strong at this point.



Let's see some Top Tens from you guys. They don't have to be super nerd lists like mine. The ten best you've personally ever seen. I'm interested in your guys perspectives.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Firstly, you need to repost your Top 100...maybe not the whole thread, but at least the order.

As for the biggest risers.

Tanahashi, Okada, Punk, El Generico and perhaps Kevin Steen and Davey Richards (but I don't quite know where you put them on your initial list) would be the highest risers...they probably had the best cumulative four years since your list was made.

Did you have Ibushi on your intial list? I'm thinking no.

I'd need to see your entire list again to respond to sliders.

As for Bobby Fish...what is there to apologize about? He wasn't Top 100 in 2009 and he's not Top 100 in 2013. He's not even the best wrestler in his pushed tag team. Autoparts has a much better portfolio as a singles wrestler.

As for some of the other names...I don't see Ziggler on a list like that. Neither do I think Ambrose. Some of the other back end Jap guys like Tozawa, Suwama, and Sekimoto...they are certainly better than Inoue who was on the back end of your list.

As for your question in regards to Tanahashi...#3 would be a bit high, for my liking. As I've called him for a while now...he's the Japanese Shawn Michaels...not sure I'd rate him higher than Michaels, but I would rate Michaels higher than you.

 

[SuperKevin]

Bobby Fish somehow discovered some charisma though. He's an excellent heel

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Don't remind me of Inoue, as I have stated many times I have no idea what I was thinking including him. I must have just watched the one match he ever had that I liked, or something. I can't even think of stuff that I enjoy out of him, it really is a mystery what i was thinking.

Ibushi was on the initial list.

I'm going to post it again after I update it. Man, the order looks so dated in hindsight, to the point some of it is embarrassing. But wrestling changes fast.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Bobby Fish somehow discovered some charisma though. He's an excellent heel

That, I was never expecting. Dude is a charisma machine.

The more I think about Fish, the more I realize his best stuff is in tags. He needs to be deleted. Otherwise, the door opens for the Bobby Eatons & Arn Andersons & Ricky Mortons & my man Tama/Tonga Kid & a host of others.

 

[SuperKevin]

Serious question here

Does a guy like Bubba Ray sneak in at the very end now? He's improved his look drastically and he has charisma and ring psychology down to a science now. He may not be the most gifted technical wrestler but he gets all the other aspects of the game well enough

Edit: if you're looking to leave off guys who are best in tag teams then probably not a chance he makes it

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Serious question here

Does a guy like Bubba Ray sneak in at the very end now? He's improved his look drastically and he has charisma and ring psychology down to a science now. He may not be the most gifted technical wrestler but he gets all the other aspects of the game well enough

Edit: if you're looking to leave off guys who are best in tag teams then probably not a chance he makes it

I based it on match quality, so no. I don't think Bully Ray has ever had a match I would call very good, let alone great.

 

[SuperKevin]

I based it on match quality, so no. I don't think Bully Ray has ever had a match I would call very good, let alone great.

Fair Enough. I agree his in ring work can be god awful at times but he's really good at all the other aspects of wrestling. Then again it may just be a big fish in a little pond scenario since everyone else in TNA is so fucking terrible

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

#100 Jake Roberts
#99 Bobby Fish
#98 Stevie Richards
#97 Psicosis (Nicho El Millionairo)
#96 Art Barr
#95 Wataru Inoue
#94 Taz
#93 Chris Hero
#92 Raven
#91 Shane Douglas
#90 John Morrison

#89 La Sombra
#88 Fujita "Jr" Hayato
#87 Atsushi Aoki
#86 Shinsuke Nakamura
#85 Terry Taylor
#84 Kotaro Suzuki
#83 Great Sasuke
#82 Hayabusa
#81 Koji Kanemoto
#80 Masato Yoshino

#79 Bam Bam Bigelow
#78 Sting
#77 Go Shiozaki
#76 Yoshihiro Tajiri
#75 TAKA Michinoku
#74 Kaz Hayashi
#73 Edge
#72 Jun Akiyama
#71 Juventud Guerrera
#70 Taiji Ishimori

#69 Eddie Edwards
#68 Kota Ibushi
#67 Ricky Marvin
#66 Matt Sydal (Evan Bourne)
#65 Yoshinobu Kanemaru
#64 YAMATO
#63 Kevin Steen
#62 Naruki Doi
#61 Mike Quackenbush
#60 Super Crazy

#59 Roderick Strong
#58 CIMA
#57 William (Steven) Regal
#56 Dragon Kid
#55 Masato Tanaka
#54 Sabu
#53 2 Cold Scorpio
#52 El Generico
#51 Katsuhiko Nakajima
#50 Hiroshi Tanahashi

#49 Shelton Benjamin
#48 Christian
#47 Brian Pillman
#46 Booker T
#45 Claudio Castagnoli
#44 Prince Devitt
#43 Lance Storm
#42 Terry Funk
#41 Toshiaki Kawada
#40 Shingo Takagi

#39 Steve "Dr. Death" Williams
#38 Vader
#37 Kensuke Sasake
#36 CM Punk
#35 Genichiro Tenryu
#34 Davey Boy Smith
#33 Jerry Lynn
#32 Rob Van Dam
#31 Low Ki
#30 Austin Aries

#29 Nigel McGuinness
#28 Ultimo Dragon
#27 Rey Misterio Jr
#26 Christopher Daniels
#25 Randy Savage
#24 Owen Hart
#23 "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig
#22 Davey Richards
#21 Dean Malenko
#20 Steve Austin

#19 Chris Jericho
#18 Ricky Steamboat
#17 A.J. Styles
#16 Samoa Joe
#15 Chris Benoit
#14 Keiji Mutoh
#13 Bret Hart
#12 Naomichi Marufuji
#11 Dynamite Kid
#10 Jushin Liger
#9 Tiger Mask (Satoru Sayama)
#8 Eddie Guerrero
#7 Kenta
#6 Shawn Michaels

#5 Ric Flair
#4 Bryan Danielson
#3 Kurt Angle
#2 Mitsuhara Misawa
#1 Kenta Kobashi
----------------------------------------------------------

Looks like Go Shiozaki was on it.

Nakamura moves up significantly. He's been money since the gimmick reboot.

I was being forward thinking at the time with Fish, Sombra, "Jr" Hayato, & Ibushi. None had particularly deep resumes at the time. Ibushi was still in his "same match every time" phase, Sombra was just getting started. Fish was a deep indie geek/ROH straight up TV jobber. Hayato was the best of the group, and ironically has improved the least, but he has had injuries, too.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Fair Enough. I agree his in ring work can be god awful at times but he's really good at all the other aspects of wrestling. Then again it may just be a big fish in a little pond scenario since everyone else in TNA is so fucking terrible

He's perfectly fine in the ring. He's not great, imo. Plenty of great guys are left off, he'd struggle to make a Top 300 or 400 i'd imagine.

I started with something like 350-400 names when I did this (that included tag guys).

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Sting ahead of Nakamura & Kanemoto, good story bro, who made this shit?

 

[SuperKevin]

I forgot how Jap this list was

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I'm trying to put together a "quick Top 100"...so far...all I have is...

1. Ric Flair

And then a list of 150 other guys.

:forgetit:

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm trying to put together a "quick Top 100"...so far...all I have is...

1. Ric Flair

And then a list of 150 other guys.

:forgetit:

Shit is harder than it looks. Mostly splitting hairs and then realizing you forgot 19 more guys. It's a pain in the ass.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I am now determined to give some sort of Top 100 list, but looking at my glob of names, I already know, I'm having a hard time separating my personal favorites from good in-ring workers and guys who were really good at certain things that made the bad not so bad.

I have Hulk on my list...and here is the thing...he's not what you'd consider a traditionally great wrestler, hell, most people would say he kind of stinks...but considering what he was asked to do (work in front of the biggest crowds wrestling has seen)...how many guys in the history of wrestling could hold an audience like Hogan? How many knew how to manipulate a crowd like Hogan? This isn't traditional in-ring skill, but he was magnificent at shit like that and made classic matches out of shit that wasn't very good. How in the fuck do you rank that ahead of or behind say a technical guy that never did it in front of more than 3000 people like Christopher Daniels. I have no fucking idea.

And then you have a guy like Cena...but once you start talking about Cena in the ring, you open the door to Sting, Luger, Windham, The Undertaker, etc...guys who couldn't carry someone clearly inferior, but could be taken to greatness with the right guy and if they were pitted against a slightly inferior worker, in the right place/time could make some magic.

Perhaps I am overthinking...but I am determined to make one now. Gonna take some time.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Good luck.

When in doubt, I just went with the guy whose matches I liked the most. Then changed my mind a hundred times, then looked back on the list and wondered "what the fuck was I thinking" at some of the placements.

It's hard to rewind your mind 3-4 years, though. Hard to erase shit that happened since then that massively changes things. It makes you wonder who is laying in the weeds now, working prelims, not standing out at all, who will emerge over the next three years, and be a lock for something like this. Or who will just explode and move up 50 spots. Because those guys are out there.

 

[s@ppisgod]

In his prime, I would take Brian Pillman over Stunning Steve Austin. Yeah, I said it! I would have loved to see a healthy Pillman go into WWF and wrestle 30 minute matches with HBK and Bret

1. Ric Flair

2. Shawn Michaels

3. Bret Hart

4. Bryan Danielson

5. Kurt Angle

6. Ricky Steamboat

7. Eddy Guerrero

8. Double Murderer

9. CM Punk

10. AJ Styles

11. Randy Savage

Not as familiar with the Japs and lower level indies...

I put more stock in some guys like Punk and Savage, because while they aren't as technical, their matches draw you in. I'd much rather see Macho Man in the ring on any given night than even someone like Benoit. But Benoit has the resume that the Mach doesn't.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Two guys who jump out at me that I feel like I overrated are Chris Benoit & Curt Hennig.

Benoit is a guy who I always felt was overrated. I understand why people really dug his stuff, and I really dug his stuff too (to an extent), but he was always consistently overrated to me and I put him as high as I did almost because I felt like he had to be that high. I see plenty of guys below him who I think are better.

Hennig is probably my favorite wrestler of all time. Let me get that out of the way. However, name ten great Curt Hennig matches. It's harder than you think, and if he's rated as high as I have him, it shouldn't be. Hennig is a guy who knew how to work, took some of the best bumps of all time, and was a fantastic pro wrestler. But the fact is, his list of truly great matches is not very long, at least in the context of his elite peers. I realized this when I was doing his write up for the original thread, and it's something I hadn't really noticed until then.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Also, AJ Styles was really, really great.

Styles in 2013 reminds me of Ladanian Tomlinson as a Jet. He's one of those guys that was as good as it gets, but you have a hard time remembering in the moment because you see him rushing for three yards per pop (any Impact match these days) and getting outplayed by Shonn Green (Chris Sabin). But then when he retires, you remember 2006 (Styles vs Daniels vs Joe).

 

[s@ppisgod]

Two guys who jump out at me that I feel like I overrated are Chris Benoit & Curt Hennig.

Benoit is a guy who I always felt was overrated. I understand why people really dug his stuff, and I really dug his stuff too (to an extent), but he was always consistently overrated to me and I put him as high as I did almost because I felt like he had to be that high. I see plenty of guys below him who I think are better.

Hennig is probably my favorite wrestler of all time. Let me get that out of the way. However, name ten great Curt Hennig matches. It's harder than you think, and if he's rated as high as I have him, it shouldn't be. Hennig is a guy who knew how to work, took some of the best bumps of all time, and was a fantastic pro wrestler. But the fact is, his list of truly great matches is not very long, at least in the context of his elite peers. I realized this when I was doing his write up for the original thread, and it's something I hadn't really noticed until then.

Yeah, I agree. I was never a big Benoit guy, but going from ECW's in-ring prime to WCW's in-ring prime to WWE's in-ring prime and being an equal player in all does have a big influence. He's got piles of 4* matches by most any standards. But ya know if you put him in there with Ultimate Warrior, he doesn't get the matches that Mach got. If we're doing the sports analogies, Benoit is a compiler. He's Cris Carter.

Perfect does get a little overrated. He's an amazing seller and he had unique charisma for a heel. People really liked disliking him. But as a wrestler, his prime was cut too short and there were too few big matches.

Styles is the man. The durability, the consistency, the improved technical skills. He's become a great all-around wrestler, limited only by a lack of talent around him post-TNA's prime. Tons of good wrestlers like Shelley and Sabin and Petey and Lethal to the usual upper-echelon Joe/FA/Angle matches, but after Angle put him over big, there was nowhere else for him to go. That rarely seems to be as big of a problem in the WWE, as it was in TNA/WCW/any other promotion. Which is really a credit to them.