Ian delivers once again ( Titans vs Ravens)

[adembroski]

So did you guys see Ian's big thread on what they're figuring out was wrong with the pass rush?

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/madden-nfl-football/325489-just-stumbled-across-great-find-re-pass-rush.html

Ian talks about it at GREAT length explaining a lot of technical stuff, I can't really replicate it very well. But in the absolute most basic terms... you know they removed player weapons right? Well some of the player weapon calculations had been left in the code. And combine that with nearly every player's rating being dropped overall, and it kind of doubled their losses in a way.



And to clarify, the Weapons' calculations were only "active" on the ratings that affect pass rush capability. So this won't change the game globally but should definitely make pass rushers effective again.

He recently had another post

Really good to read, I'm not surprised a bit. There was a lot of this kind of stuff going on... the shit they had to tear out of Franchise mode to make it work is insane.

But the pass rush was one of two HUGE issues. There's no ratings curve that makes linebackers act like they're retarded.They get that fixed too, and Ian can have his props back... there's more I'd like to see fixed, but those two things will make this a really fun game that's at least tactically sound (ie the right offenses will beat the right defenses and vica virca), even if individual player assignments aren't perfect.

For the record, Lbzrule and I are collaborating at the moment on a very in-depth analysis of the posted video which I'll be e-mailing to Ian tonight. There's nothing in there I think is entirely unfixable assuming "serviceable" is good enough... though I don't know how in depth they'll have to go with pursuit logic. The pass rush is pure tuning, so I expect that'll be improved.

[adembroski]

Obviously he is still working out the kinks. You guys seem way to quick to jump on Ian when he is giving us way more previews of the game than in previous titles.

He is, and for that I've been giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still do... I was under the mistaken assumption that "data freeze" meant the start of Beta.

The basic definition of the two is this; "Alpha" is an acknowledgment that you do not yet have a shippable product. "Beta" means you've got your first ship candidate, though you generally go through many failed betas before you get there. They're still in Alpha, so the product we're seeing is not a candidate for shipping.

Still, I'm frustrated to see that the #1 issue of the two most knowledgeable football people there hadn't been addressed yet, two months later. I can't help but think, "How do you tune the running game when the linebackers aren't even doing their jobs yet?"

In other words, Ian posted this for the sake of fresh eyes on the product. And I can respect that. But if that's his motivation, he needs to ignore the insults and read the meaning behind them and not get worked up. I can understand how a guy's gonna get frustrated when he's gotta read through accusations of laziness and not caring to get to some substantial feedback, but he knows who's worth reading over there and how isn't. He's spending too much time reading the posts of people he knows aren't worth reading.

[DSpydr84]

I'm back! Here we go with the good/bad from these videos. Buckle up cause it's gonna be a bumpy ride! The good is in blue, the bad is in red. Times marked for all comments so you can check it out yourself.


Video 1:

(0:36) Love Trevor Price (LE) on this play. That's exactly how it would happen. The RG doesn't have the angle, Price crosses his face and gets outside leverage, sheds the block and makes the play. It's the RBs job to cut underneath that block... come on Ian!

(1:16) This stuff bugs the hell out of me. This is an "Iso" run (I put the clock back so you could see him pick the play). The word "Iso" is short for "Isolation", which means the fullback is going to lead through the hole and pick up the middle linebacker. The offensive line is supposed to fan out from that block and create a seam. This is not at all what takes place. Look at how sweet this play looks pre-snap if it works how it should.. everybody has an angle on their man. If it's hard to make an Iso play work effectively, DON'T CALL IT AN ISO PLAY. If it's called a Dive, I'll know what to expect. But I'm losing yards on this play because I'm expecting my players to do something completely different.

(1:47) Check out my strong side linebacker (guy on the right side of the screen). Not stepping up to keep this run inside of him and the Ravens pay for it dearly. Yes, these things happen in real life, but I still have to point it out here. The crack block was a dead give away too. And actually, the Mike linebacker (I think it's Lewis.. which wouldn't surprise me) plays this run perfectly. If the Sam is doing his job and forcing this run inside, Ray makes the hit in the backfield. Nice job 52, I noticed.

(2:34) Check out the fullback. The offense is letting the DT come through because it's an outside run, but the fullback still comes back to block him. If he leads up the field and knocks out the corner like he should, Johnson might still be running.

(3:52) Same thing. The fullback is trying to block backside pursuit on this play and I don't understand why. But either way, nice read Ian! That's how you play linebacker!

(4:13) LEAD BLOCKERS: STAY OUTSIDE!!

(4:34) Good lord I just threw up in my mouth. Watch the cornerback to your right (should be Finnegan who's pretty good). This is awful technique. He gives him a cushion, let's him eat the cushion, then proceeds to run with the receiver (yet somehow does a good job staying with him).

(4:50) Lineman do a much better job getting down field on this play as opposed to the other video.

(5:12) I just got a boner watching the inside linebackers read this play. Flawless. Back to back good looking plays? Now we're playing some football!

(5:29) I don't know who my Sam linebacker is, but man, his starting days might be numbered if he keeps this up. He once again fails to maintain outside leverage and force this run back inside. Ray is forced to cover his ass. Fullback is never going to lead on sweeps I guess.

(6:33) Couple of things I liked on this play. Love the bump coverage by my Sam on Crumpler here... looks very good. I also liked the SS (Landry?) biting a bit on PA, but it didn't look stupid. He recovered nicely (even though he still got beat). Gage, way to go up and get it.

(7:09) lol at my safety in the endzone who just fell over his own feet. You gotta jump in that play man! Ray looks like a great player (if that was Ray on this one, the MLB)... he just reads the play and flows very well.

(7:40) That's a pretty big hole for a goalline QB sneak. Just sayin'.

(8:34) Other than my strong side backer looking like he just saw a ghost (guy on the left side of the screen), I like everything about this play offensively and defensively. This was the first play this game that really looked good. Looks like they added in the unbalanced line too.

(8:54) Vanden Bosch, teach the Ravens Sam linebacker how to maintain outside leverage and keep everything inside of you. He doesn't do it right. ;)

(9:20) What a stupid play call on 3rd and 7.. I'm glad he paid for it. Watch out ref!


Video 2:

(0:21) lol at Kerry on the phone. You better cut that call short and get on the field man it's your ball!

(1:06) THAT'S how you play it. My Sam backer FINALLY does it right.

(2:08) Nice read by the DE. If it's easy, it's wrong.. he sniffed that screen out.

(2:52) This is just pretty to watch. Check out Vanden Bosch on this one (RE; defensive end to the left of your screen). He rips off his block and comes for blood at the QB without a suction block to be found. The DBs play this one much better too. Love the chain gang as well.

(3:18) REALLY cool animation here with the user. He goes to dive and make a block and the Raven player just jumps over him. You've got a nice run going so far Madden.. I'm impressed.

(4:15) Awesome corner blitz.. he shot in like a missle and the RT never saw him. The MLB didn't get picked up either which leads me to believe the offense line was confused. Could it be?!

(4:37) I did notice a lot of missed blocks on this play, but this one was doomed from the start. 5 blockers on 7 box defenders will never work out. This one is totally ok with me.. it's Ian's fault for not switching the play.

(4:58) I didn't really like this. It's a Cover 3 zone so the post should be there almost everytime.. Foxworth just kinda has a sixth sense about it. I don't know if that's the new AI thing or what, but this play rubbed me the wrong way. What's even worse is the other side of the field: The CB jumps the comeback route before it even happens. I don't remember Ian running this play before so I can't credit this to the new AI thing. If a CB ever thought to jump a comeback route in a Cover 3 zone and they got beat deep, they wouldn't play in the NFL anymore. This is pretty surprising to see after such a strong quarter of play so far.

(7:02) Took me a couple views to figure out the coverage because the weakside linebacker played it so bad. Chris Johnson was WIDE open. I know he's not a DB but he got spun around and lost for a few seconds... that's not good at all.

(7:20) I found it kind of interesting that Foxworth once again plays hard inside in his Cover 3 zone. I'm not sure what he's doing anymore.



More to come!

[adembroski]

Haha, Lbz was doing the same thing... when Ian controls a linebacker, the linebacker does EXACTLY what he's supposed to do.

[adembroski]

I'm back! Here we go with the good/bad from these videos. Buckle up cause it's gonna be a bumpy ride! The good is in blue, the bad is in red. Times marked for all comments so you can check it out yourself.


Video 1:

(0:36) Love Trevor Price (LE) on this play. That's exactly how it would happen. The RG doesn't have the angle, Price crosses his face and gets outside leverage, sheds the block and makes the play. It's the RBs job to cut underneath that block... come on Ian!

(1:16) This stuff bugs the hell out of me. This is an "Iso" run (I put the clock back so you could see him pick the play). The word "Iso" is short for "Isolation", which means the fullback is going to lead through the hole and pick up the middle linebacker. The offensive line is supposed to fan out from that block and create a seam. This is not at all what takes place. Look at how sweet this play looks pre-snap if it works how it should.. everybody has an angle on their man. If it's hard to make an Iso play work effectively, DON'T CALL IT AN ISO PLAY. If it's called a Dive, I'll know what to expect. But I'm losing yards on this play because I'm expecting my players to do something completely different.

(1:47) Check out my strong side linebacker (guy on the right side of the screen). Not stepping up to keep this run inside of him and the Ravens pay for it dearly. Yes, these things happen in real life, but I still have to point it out here. The crack block was a dead give away too. And actually, the Mike linebacker (I think it's Lewis.. which wouldn't surprise me) plays this run perfectly. If the Sam is doing his job and forcing this run inside, Ray makes the hit in the backfield. Nice job 52, I noticed.

(2:34) Check out the fullback. The offense is letting the DT come through because it's an outside run, but the fullback still comes back to block him. If he leads up the field and knocks out the corner like he should, Johnson might still be running.

(3:52) Same thing. The fullback is trying to block backside pursuit on this play and I don't understand why. But either way, nice read Ian! That's how you play linebacker!

(4:13) LEAD BLOCKERS: STAY OUTSIDE!!

(4:34) Good lord I just threw up in my mouth. Watch the cornerback to your right (should be Finnegan who's pretty good). This is awful technique. He gives him a cushion, let's him eat the cushion, then proceeds to run with the receiver (yet somehow does a good job staying with him).

(4:50) Lineman do a much better job getting down field on this play as opposed to the other video.

(5:12) I just got a boner watching the inside linebackers read this play. Flawless. Back to back good looking plays? Now we're playing some football!

(5:29) I don't know who my Sam linebacker is, but man, his starting days might be numbered if he keeps this up. He once again fails to maintain outside leverage and force this run back inside. Ray is forced to cover his ass. Fullback is never going to lead on sweeps I guess.

(6:33) Couple of things I liked on this play. Love the bump coverage by my Sam on Crumpler here... looks very good. I also liked the SS (Landry?) biting a bit on PA, but it didn't look stupid. He recovered nicely (even though he still got beat). Gage, way to go up and get it.

(7:09) lol at my safety in the endzone who just fell over his own feet. You gotta jump in that play man! Ray looks like a great player (if that was Ray on this one, the MLB)... he just reads the play and flows very well.

(7:40) That's a pretty big hole for a goalline QB sneak. Just sayin'.

(8:34) Other than my strong side backer looking like he just saw a ghost (guy on the left side of the screen), I like everything about this play offensively and defensively. This was the first play this game that really looked good. Looks like they added in the unbalanced line too.

(8:54) Vanden Bosch, teach the Ravens Sam linebacker how to maintain outside leverage and keep everything inside of you. He doesn't do it right. ;)

(9:20) What a stupid play call on 3rd and 7.. I'm glad he paid for it. Watch out ref!


Video 2:

(0:21) lol at Kerry on the phone. You better cut that call short and get on the field man it's your ball!

(1:06) THAT'S how you play it. My Sam backer FINALLY does it right.

(2:08) Nice read by the DE. If it's easy, it's wrong.. he sniffed that screen out.

(2:52) This is just pretty to watch. Check out Vanden Bosch on this one (RE; defensive end to the left of your screen). He rips off his block and comes for blood at the QB without a suction block to be found. The DBs play this one much better too. Love the chain gang as well.

(3:18) REALLY cool animation here with the user. He goes to dive and make a block and the Raven player just jumps over him. You've got a nice run going so far Madden.. I'm impressed.

(4:15) Awesome corner blitz.. he shot in like a missle and the RT never saw him. The MLB didn't get picked up either which leads me to believe the offense line was confused. Could it be?!

(4:37) I did notice a lot of missed blocks on this play, but this one was doomed from the start. 5 blockers on 7 box defenders will never work out. This one is totally ok with me.. it's Ian's fault for not switching the play.

(4:58) I didn't really like this. It's a Cover 3 zone so the post should be there almost everytime.. Foxworth just kinda has a sixth sense about it. I don't know if that's the new AI thing or what, but this play rubbed me the wrong way. What's even worse is the other side of the field: The CB jumps the comeback route before it even happens. I don't remember Ian running this play before so I can't credit this to the new AI thing. If a CB ever thought to jump a comeback route in a Cover 3 zone and they got beat deep, they wouldn't play in the NFL anymore. This is pretty surprising to see after such a strong quarter of play so far.

(7:02) Took me a couple views to figure out the coverage because the weakside linebacker played it so bad. Chris Johnson was WIDE open. I know he's not a DB but he got spun around and lost for a few seconds... that's not good at all.

(7:20) I found it kind of interesting that Foxworth once again plays hard inside in his Cover 3 zone. I'm not sure what he's doing anymore.



More to come!

Now, you can see the potential this game has, can you not? Some broken tuning with this linebackers and the pass rush is clearly the biggest issue. The pass coverage is slow to react and zone integrity isn't great, but it is serviceable if they get those linebackers some brains.

[DSpydr84]

Now, you can see the potential this game has, can you not? Some broken tuning with this linebackers and the pass rush is clearly the biggest issue. The pass coverage is slow to react and zone integrity isn't great, but it is serviceable if they get those linebackers some brains.

I can. From what I've seen of the Titans/Ravens game so far, I was actually impressed with a lot of what happened. I actually didn't mind the pass rush really, the QBs just had hot potatoes back there for the most part.

If there were two things I could tell Ian to fix based off what I've seen so far, one is like you said the linebacker play just needs a lot of cleaning up, and the fullback on sweeps keeps blocking backside pursuit for some reason. Other than that, I was pleasantly surprised so far.

[Archer]

The vid didnt make me think "oh my god i need this game" but then again it didnt depress me either

So .... not too bad i guess

[Tailback U]

This video offered a lot more than the previous one (Falcons/Chiefs) but it is still hard to judge the game because a human being is playing a computer.

Few things I didn't like:

Chris Johnson is able to break a run to the outside on an ISO play. Ian just holds down sprint and runs straight outside his tackles even though the HB is supposed to hit the A gap. While this can happen in the NFL from time to time, it is rare and only happens when a halfback is forced to break it outside because the defense is over-playing a run or slanting toward a certain side. Halfbacks can't just decide to take ISOs straight to the sideline and peel off gains like that. (note - i only watched this video once and didn't bother rewinding so my details could be off).

I also believe I saw a corner or an outside linebacker stay in his pass drop way too long on a run play. Only after the halfback hit the LOS did the defender come up to make the tackle. It was only a 2 yard gain, but why is he dropping back on a designed run.

Like everyone has saying, there is no excuse for linebackers to be dropping back whatsoever unless the offense is running a draw. Depending on the assignment, linebackers will typically read guards, fullbacks, and halfbacks and react to their first movement.

It's also annoying how the Ian just hits turbo soon as he receives the hand off and tries to make every run to the outside. Doesn't take time to read blocks. He is the guy in charge of gameplay??

Way too many missed/broken tackles. Again, I don't know what the setting is on, but I'm hoping and betting that All-Madden is going to be much more realistic than the gameplay in these vids.

I'm wondering if Madden even has this type of read/react system in the game. They need to implement it if they want a realistic football game.

One major plus I've noticed is that man to man defense is much improved which I really love.

[KoRnStARr]

im mad the doctors/trainers arent wearing any coats or hats and gloves because they are clearly playing in cold weather....

Is this a serious concern? Jesus christ.

[zack54attack]

I still want to have player weapons.

I thought those were neat.

[adembroski]

Is this a serious concern? Jesus christ.

Not huge, but it's been mentioned to him on twitter and it's something they're looking into. There are several misplaced/broken cutscenes. Wrong guys celebrating. stuff like that.

[Helicopter]

In the third video, right after the extra point from the long touchdown on the screen pass to Johnson, I noticed Vince Young not congratulating Kerry Collins when he came to the sidelines but instead just walking by him. It doesn't get much more authentic than that.

[Tailback U]

yeah Collins almost looked like Tim Tebow.

[adembroski]

Yeah I've noticed some of the players head-models, (mostly with their helmets off) that look nothing like their real-life counterparts.

Not a big deal, especially since there are more players out there who they have spot on. But yeah Kerry Collins looked really big, in the face especially. And had jet black hair that looked spray painted.

I thought he looked like a fucking demon. Something really weird about his eyes.

Anyways, they don't have facial scans for all players, so it's possible Collins is a generic.

[adembroski]

Hope that's not the excuse their going to use. They should make sure they do this in 2011. Isn't the game suppose to be "as real as it gets". Spray painted hair, every white guy looking the same... not every authentic.

It's pretty shitty they just pick and choose who they want to make look "authentic" and who they want to let look like John Doe.

I would assume this is a logistics issue. Not every player wants to take the time, ya know?