Madden NFL 10 Community Day

[Tailback U]

With what? Skill?

No, there is a gap between online and offline players when it comes to understanding the gameplay.

In franchise mode you play a computer, you go up a defense that is called by the computer. The computer doesn't manually blitz anyone, doesn't hot route anyone, doesn't manually cover up holes or roam with safety or LB. Playing against the computer is completely different than playing a human because a human can cover up the faults of the AI.

We weren't able to get into online at all. That they held back from us. Toward the end of the night we started getting into a long speculative argument as to whether there'll be online franchise (for the record: If there is, I'll turn into an online player pretty damn quick!).

You guys were able to play against each other, though, right?

[Tailback U]

If there is online franchise I'm joining one as the Chiefs (I am a Raiders fan but do not like to play as them in madden very much).

You are a Raiders fan. Use the Raiders. Don't use the friggin Chiefs.

That's like me starting a dynasty with Notre Dame. Never in a million years.

Well, maybe to run it into the ground, but other than that, no way.

[Aso]

I don't like their offense a whole lot. I like to spread the field and pass it a lot. I will use them sometimes but mostly other teams like the Chiefs and Patriots.

[Tailback U]

I don't like their offense a whole lot. I like to spread the field and pass it a lot. I will use them sometimes but mostly other teams like the Chiefs and Patriots.

It's franchise mode. The point is to build your franchise/team into however you want to.

And the Chiefs have worse WRs and QB than the Raiders so your excuse doesn't work, sorry.

I'm just giving you a hard time, but seriously, people like you confuse me. I hate the Chiefs, Broncos, and Chargers. I hate playing with them in Madden, I hate everything about them.

[Aso]

lol, i don't like them in the real NFL but madden is different. Last year i liked using the Broncos a lot.

[Aso]

yea i know, thats how most people are.

[adembroski]

No, there is a gap between online and offline players when it comes to understanding the gameplay.

Pretty broad statement. Especially considering I play multiplayer franchise. I don't play it alone. Generally 3 people play it with me, we take teams in the same division.

On top of that, I didn't say I don't play online... that's just not my focus. I don't play online a lot because a single game doesn't interest me as much as one that's part of a greater whole. Plus I dislike cheese immensely.

In franchise mode you play a computer, you go up a defense that is called by the computer. The computer doesn't manually blitz anyone, doesn't hot route anyone, doesn't manually cover up holes or roam with safety or LB. Playing against the computer is completely different than playing a human because a human can cover up the faults of the AI.

One of the nice things about this year's game is that it does use defensive hot routes now.

You guys were able to play against each other, though, right?

Yes... though I only played one, most guys played against others for the last 5 hours or so. (for the record, I was beating Dave 33-16 when a glitch that was forcing us to pause after play was getting too annoying).

[KoRnStARr]

I'm positive the guys there did a great job with feedback. I'm pissed because I was invited to the event but didn't get out there. I hope there's another event so I can break the game down and look for exploits and try to clean it up, along with lending my elite manual control to get a feel for how that area can improve this year.

[Herm]

They invited people from OS because guys over there say what they want to hear. No matter how bad the game is those guys never say anything to out of line. MM got a bad rep because of one guys ridiculous rant about how bad the game is.

I dont get this assumption that OS is a pro EA site, its the most pro 2k site ive ever read. To me it seems everyone there loves NFL 2k5 NBA 2kanything and hates madden and live.

[Sven Draconian]

I'm not sure why only 1 X's and O's guy was invited. LB is great, but he is pretty much just a defensive guy...and at that he's mostly concerned with the front 7 and run defense. Somebody a bit more offensively tuned and concerned with the passing game would have been nice.

I'm still somewhat doubtful about Madden/NCAA. I no longer doubt they understand the issues/care about them, but I still doubt their ability to provide us with the product. Whether it's an unusable engine(s), budget, facilities, time or whatever the reason I just don't see them putting out a high quality game yet.

I honestly feel like their animation and physics technology is so awful it just can't work. I truly believe they honestly need a completely new set of animations for the defense...for every position and situation. The DB play is ATROCIOUS, the DL/LB getting blocked/breaking blocks are awful. The change of direction animations are awful.

Hopefully if the AI is good enough it can hide those issues and make the game enjoyable, but I still have doubts.

[Sven Draconian]

I dont get this assumption that OS is a pro EA site, its the most pro 2k site ive ever read. To me it seems everyone there loves NFL 2k5 NBA 2kanything and hates madden and live.

OS is a pro-everything site. They don't really allow bashing of anything

[adembroski]

I'm not sure why only 1 X's and O's guy was invited. LB is great, but he is pretty much just a defensive guy...and at that he's mostly concerned with the front 7 and run defense. Somebody a bit more offensively tuned and concerned with the passing game would have been nice.

Emm... that was me.

As far as what I got into... mostly protections. Madden mostly uses a variation of BoB protection with a persistant YOU call. I will say that the back blocking logic was heavily improved. He read inside out, and will slide backside if he's lined up playside. The only problem was that's mostly a slide scheme, as the back has the OLB on a check-and-release on BoB... instead Madden makes a YOU call and the back checks the bubble, unless the guard is covered, in which case it falls entirely to the back to take on an outside backer by himself. There are no ME calls, which is probably for the better until the overall logic is improved. Not every center is Matt Birk. Hopefully they're working on that.

I've got an extensive document on the pass protection in Madden vs. real life pass schemes (especially full slide and half slide protections).

I honestly feel like their animation and physics technology is so awful it just can't work. I truly believe they honestly need a completely new set of animations for the defense...for every position and situation. The DB play is ATROCIOUS, the DL/LB getting blocked/breaking blocks are awful. The change of direction animations are awful.

You will be surprised at how much they've changed. I would say maybe 10% of the animations I saw were holdovers. Catch, swat, pass rush, tackles, broken tackles, drop backs, throwing, change of direction... they pretty much overhauled 90% of the library. There are a few I recognized, but even how/when they trigger and what they do have changed (for example, "superman" swats... there's a few still there, but only coming from across the play, and there's no super jump... they look more natural in that context, though I hope they still get around to replacing them).

[dave]

Yo 'Broski,

To be honest, the offline AI and physics are different than those for online. The gaming experiences don't even compare. So Tailback makes a very good point.

We had no time with anything online.
They wouldn't reveal anything about online to us.

[Sven Draconian]

Emm... that was me.

As far as what I got into... mostly protections. Madden mostly uses a variation of BoB protection with a persistant YOU call. I will say that the back blocking logic was heavily improved. He read inside out, and will slide backside if he's lined up playside. The only problem was that's mostly a slide scheme, as the back has the OLB on a check-and-release on BoB... instead Madden makes a YOU call and the back checks the bubble, unless the guard is covered, in which case it falls entirely to the back to take on an outside backer by himself. There are no ME calls, which is probably for the better until the overall logic is improved. Not every center is Matt Birk. Hopefully they're working on that.

I've got an extensive document on the pass protection in Madden vs. real life pass schemes (especially full slide and half slide protections).

If that's true that means we are likely in for more nano-blitzing and the ability to "break" the OL by blitzing with a player assigned to a zone. I'm fairly certain that is going to be the same blocking scheme we see in 2k8...which is routinely abused if one was to cheese.

I'm concerned about if pass coverage logic has been addressed. DB's don't play with any leverage on routes and routinely run themselves out of position when they have perfect position. Too many times a safety will run downhill to cover a player running a streak, or run AT a player who is running a post....letting the receiver right past them.

With the new ball trajectory/speed I hope that Madden eventually adapts the philosophy that the deeper a zone coverage defender is the more space he can play with. NFL safeties can cover a streak on the number by playing on the hashes (as long as they don't let the receiver behind them), they don't run themselves over to get on his hip. If a high-middle safety see's a streak up the hash marks, he keeps in the middle of the field to play the post.

You will be surprised at how much they've changed. I would say maybe 10% of the animations I saw were holdovers. Catch, swat, pass rush, tackles, broken tackles, drop backs, throwing, change of direction... they pretty much overhauled 90% of the library. There are a few I recognized, but even how/when they trigger and what they do have changed (for example, "superman" swats... there's a few still there, but only coming from across the play, and there's no super jump... they look more natural in that context, though I hope they still get around to replacing them).

That's good to hear. The biggest problems are the DB animations and the way those trigger. The giant swats that take your man way out of position, the interception animations that pull the coverage man away from the receiver all need to go. (It sounds like maybe they have).

DB play is much more subtle then the big, long animations madden has always used.

Hopefully the warp-glitch is leaving as well. (There defenders cover 4 yards while floating in an animation). It is quite frustrating when you make the right read on a flood pattern, wait until the 2nd level clears the defender, but the defender magically warps to cover that spot.

[adembroski]

I'm going to temper all of this by saying right out of the gate: You are difficult to please (I mean that in a good way), and I wish you were a regular on OS because you probably would have been one of the invites. I don't think one year is enough to satisfy you, regardless of how much the squeezed into it.

When Ian asked me for a replacement for a drop out, I immediately said Kornstar because I felt we needed someone who could go in and find glitches and exploits along with the football guys, equipment guys, franchise guys, and presentation guys... if I'd been thinking, I'd have suggested you, and that's most definitely my bad.

If that's true that means we are likely in for more nano-blitzing and the ability to "break" the OL by blitzing with a player assigned to a zone. I'm fairly certain that is going to be the same blocking scheme we see in 2k8...which is routinely abused if one was to cheese.

I can't dig too deeply because it has to do with new tech that hasn't been introduced yet. Remind me and I'll address this point directly after the draft (hopefully).

I'm concerned about if pass coverage logic has been addressed. DB's don't play with any leverage on routes and routinely run themselves out of position when they have perfect position. Too many times a safety will run downhill to cover a player running a streak, or run AT a player who is running a post....letting the receiver right past them.

There were a few logic issues when I played... but I chalk it up more to being an alpha than anything. I threw a post to Vernon Davis against cover 2... the pass was errant, floated into the deep half and Davis had to break off his route and come under the coverage to get too it. The safety was in a great position to either get under Davis and get the pick, or make the big hit... instead, he overran the play over the top of Davis and ended up missing everything. This was something I actually called Ian over to show rather than just typing it up.

With the new ball trajectory/speed I hope that Madden eventually adapts the philosophy that the deeper a zone coverage defender is the more space he can play with. NFL safeties can cover a streak on the number by playing on the hashes (as long as they don't let the receiver behind them), they don't run themselves over to get on his hip. If a high-middle safety see's a streak up the hash marks, he keeps in the middle of the field to play the post.

Overall, it is improved. Is the logic football-perfect? No, but considering where we started (09) and where we've come, it's an amazing improvement. The animations help a ton, but zone integrity is something I've written about in my follow up. It was better, certainly not perfect... and it wont be, it's not going to be perfect this year, but it will be appreciably better.

That's good to hear. The biggest problems are the DB animations and the way those trigger. The giant swats that take your man way out of position, the interception animations that pull the coverage man away from the receiver all need to go. (It sounds like maybe they have).

DB play is much more subtle then the big, long animations madden has always used.

Hopefully the warp-glitch is leaving as well. (There defenders cover 4 yards while floating in an animation). It is quite frustrating when you make the right read on a flood pattern, wait until the 2nd level clears the defender, but the defender magically warps to cover that spot.

Most of the swat animations are more subtle. They wrap around the receiver and hit the ball much closer to his hands. Also, player movement is greatly improved. They're not super-human anymore. That's something else I can't say too much about... not just because of the NDA, but because it's not finalized. There's an alternate version of locomotion that Ian modeled for us in ANT that had a few kinks to work out.

In 18 hours, I noticed 1 blatant warp in pass defense, and it was an attempted swap that didn't' quite sync with the receiver's animation. The receiver still made the play. The slower gameplay had an effect on that... they don't need super-speed animations and warping to get guys in position.