Great Article on The Captain - Derek Jeter

[SethMode]

Well first of all, there is a difference between 22nd worst defensive player at the SS position and the least effective at turning batted balls into outs. I don't know what criteria they used to make those assessments, but once again, THEY are the ones that reviewed every baseball hit to Derek Jeter (and many others) over a long period of time, and unless you have done something very similar, I don't think you are in a position to challenge their expertise.

And on your first question, let's see: if the least effective defensive player in the league regardless of position is named Derek Jeter, and you are asking me whether I think players NOT named Derek Jeter are more effective defensive players, what do you think my answer would be? But don't confuse me saying that Dunn and Ramirez are more effective defenders than Jeter with me saying that Dunn and Ramirez are good or even average fielders by any stretch of the imagination.

You keep saying "they" but in the article I read, it isn't clear, unless you're just referring to BIS:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/worst_fielder_in_majors_I9Io5f71ufPc6UaiysVgWK

Here's the quote, again, that I find misleading/convoluted:

Stats guru Bill James, author of the "Baseball Abstract," and a panel of nine other voters, ranked Jeter 22nd among all major-league shortstops, with one calling Jeter "the least effective defensive player in the major leagues, at any position."

Jeter received one 10th-place vote in balloting for the 2008 Fielding Bible Awards, announced yesterday. One panel member comes from Baseball Info Solutions (BIS), a group that ... well, just say they do their research.

So to me, that reads that BIS, and in this case specifically the guy that was representing them on the panel of 10, are the only ones that make that assessment (and in a later quote by James, he even uses the word probably, which removes any complete positivity I think). What about the other 9 guys that helped make up the Fielding Bible Awards? These guys clearly don't agree with BIS, or a) they would have said the same; and b) they would have ranked Jeter the worst defensive shortstop in MLB.

Lastly, I just don't get your position, or why you so vehemently post about it. I guess you're just saying that you're willing to blindly support this group of analysts (BIS) rather than use your own judgment? If that's the case, you seem awful fired up for a position that wasn't even made by you. Myself, as someone who has watched all of them play, I just can't say in good conscious, that Jeter is the least effective defensive player. And apparently neither can 9 other guys who are much greater experts on the subject than I.

[Senser81]

Well first of all, there is a difference between 22nd worst defensive player at the SS position and the least effective at turning batted balls into outs. I don't know what criteria they used to make those assessments, but once again, THEY are the ones that reviewed every baseball hit to Derek Jeter (and many others) over a long period of time, and unless you have done something very similar, I don't think you are in a position to challenge their expertise.

LOL...so you cannot explain the criteria or how they made their assessments, yet you conclude "unless you have done something similar, you are not in a position to challenge their expertise." You can't even describe what their 'expertise' is!

You think you are smart, but you're not. Wow.

I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind the statement (i.e Lefty34's empirical fact) that Derek Jeter is the least effective defensive player in baseball, regardless of position. I don't even know what exactly is meant by "least effective defensive player". Amazingly, neither does Lefty34!

[DJ Fog]

After reading such horrible arguments, I will definitely not be looking at 643 Sports for any information if this is a representation of them.

Senser, right on.

[DJ Fog]

Continue on, butterhead

[SethMode]

Thanks for your input. I really wish you would change your mind about the show, but...whatever. Continue on, butterhead

You know, instead of calling people "butterhead" you could try and answer the above points?

[Senser81]

Its official...Lefty34 has lost yet another argument...this time, in dramatic fashion.

[DJ Fog]

I beg to differ. But listen, if you guys want to call into the show tonight and have a live, real-time discussion about this, you are more than welcome to call in and bring it up, in fact I ENCOURAGE you to call in. We go live tonight at 7PM CST at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/643Sports

If you can't write out good arguments when you have the time to research and formulate better arguments, how the fuck are you going to verbally on the spot come up with good responses?

Are you being an idiot in multiples threads just to try to lure people into listening and calling in? I'm not gonna search through your posts to find out, but I wouldn't doubt it, and it's a pretty lame move.

[The Messenger]

lol @ Lefty.

I believe JeremyHight put it best. Too many people on this site trying to be intellectuals when they really aren't.

[SethMode]

I beg to differ. But listen, if you guys want to call into the show tonight and have a live, real-time discussion about this, you are more than welcome to call in and bring it up, in fact I ENCOURAGE you to call in. We go live tonight at 7PM CST at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/643Sports

WTF? So, this can't continue in print, we have to call in to some blog radio show thing?

I don't care about whatever stink you have with Senser, I asked some legitimate questions that you refuse to answer. I almost wish I had seen this link in time, but odds are I would have just been ganged up on, so, no harm done.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Jeter is one of those players that always scores badly with these silly, made up fielding statistics, yet when you watch him play, he clearly does a competent job fielding his position. He's not Omar Vizquel (who, btw, also scores worse than you think with all of that silly Baseball Prospectus stuff), but he's perfectly average, and like it or not, has a flair for making dramatic plays at crucial times.

Stat dorks can try all they want, but baseball fielding is alot like football offensive line play. You just have to watch, because no stat can ever tell the story. Nobody who watches Jeter play would ever come to the conclusion he's "the least effective player in baseball at fielding his position". That assertion is just flat out stupid, for lack of a better term.

[Warner2BruceTD]

His has a career UZR/150 (Ultimate Zone Rating per 150 games in Runs Above Average) of -4.8 and a career Fielding Runs Above Average of -104. He's just not that good at turning balls hit near him into outs, I'm sorry.

I mean, how can anyone take that stuff seriously?

There are so many variables involved in those phony stats, from having opportunities, to the type of pitchers on your team, to how hard balls are hit, to where the fielder is positioned before the pitch, the score of the game, etc etc etc.

I know those dorks try really hard with this stuff (i'm a big Bill James fan, and even though I think they try to hard and are completely full of shit, I read the Baseball Prospectus stuff), but you just cant put reliable numbers on fielding.

[The Messenger]

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with a bunch of douchebags to prove who is smart/smarter/smartest on an internet message board, particularly on one devoted to video games.



I never said it "can't continue in print", numbnuts, but if I can liven up my show and have some good discussion with people passionate about a topic, what would be the harm?



Ok well I must have missed those, please re-ask or quote them and I will answer to the best of my abilities.



No, you wouldn't have to be perfectly honest. Sound clips might have been played in an attempt to make people laugh, but that's about it. But fine, don't listen, I don't really give a shit, it seems people only comment on our show to say how much it sucks or how against listening to it they are anyway.



Those are all valid points, and fielding metrics, while suspect at best, at least put some type of value on fielding, something that is objective rather than subjective and ambiguous.



Are the numbers reliable? Eh, maybe, but more than likely they are not (though they do provide some sort of starting point). But the new system MLB is going to be testing out in the next few years to track the movement of players around the field should provide some legit fielding statistics that are more reliable than someone saying "I WATCH DA YANKEES PLAY, AND JETER IS AWESOME!!!!!"

lol you went off of statistics that you now admit are probably not reliable. Like W2BTD said, if you watch Jeter play, he is more than capable of playing shortstop.

My original point was that Jeter wasn't a great shortstop and he probably would've been a much better center fielder, but we had a great center fielder at the time Jeter was coming up and now we have a guy who was molded into a short who can play average or above average defense at short and can hit like it's nobodies business. That's why I said I would much rather have Jeter over any shortstop not named Cal Ripken, Jr (meaning players that I've grown up and watched play, not guys from way back in the day).

He does a good enough job on defense and even has a flair for the dramatic at times, and with that bat at that position, I think any team would take Jeter at short.

[DJ Fog]

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with a bunch of douchebags to prove who is smart/smarter/smartest on an internet message board, particularly on one devoted to video games.

Here's some tampon for us vsn douchebags that are unintelligent in your opinion

[The Messenger]

I also based my points off of the study quoted earlier in the thread.



Well, admittedly, I don't watch Jeter play that often, so I have to rely on the other people that watch a lot more of Jeter than I do, which is why the aforementioned study was so helpful: because they watched tape of every single ball hit towards Jeter over a long period of time.

And do you know what the panel of guys said after watching all those baseballs hit towards Jeter (just like people in this thread have repeatedly said is necessary to grasp Jeter's abilities at SS)? They said he isn't very good at the position. Now, if you want to argue the semantics of the 22nd-ranked SS in the league not actually being the least effective at turning batted balls into outs, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a contingent of people (most of whom, if not considered baseball experts outright, are de facto experts) that have watched a lot of film of Jeter playing the SS position and concluded that he isn't very good at the defensive aspect of the position.



But you don't have that guy. You have a guy that can tear the cover off of the ball, but plays well below-average defense at SS. And there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Jeter, year in and year out, has provided the Yankees with more than enough offense to make up for his defensive inabilities, there is no question there, but that still doesn't make him a good defender.



And I would take Jeter too, you know why? Because the dude can hit like very few can.

Look, many people have pointed out that defensive metrics as tools for evaluating the abilities of players are shaky, which I agree with. Even more people have noted that it is necessary to watch a lot of a player actually playing defense in order to grasp how good they are at the position, and that is more than acceptable. So, with that in hand, go back and read the article on the study that was done, the one that listed Jeter as one of the poorer defenders in the MLB right now, because that panel did exactly what people have said is necessary to grasp the abilities of a player at a defensive position. They reviewed every baseball hit towards Jeter for the 2008 season, and concluded that he was one of the worst SS in the game. Oh yeah, and then there's this (careful, there be numbers and acronyms ahead!!!!)

Now, again, if people want to argue over semantics and puff up their chest like they actually proved some sort of anything about Jeter's defensive abilities by arguing said semantics, fine. But really, that doesn't do anything to change the (scary, nerdy) numbers nor does it change the conclusions of a panel of people that reviewed every baseball hit towards Derek Jeter over a complete season, which I might point out again, is the thing that many people have said is necessary to grasp Jeter's defensive abilities.

Once again, you're not seeing the point. I don't really care to go on, Senser tried to hammer it home to you and you couldn't see it so I'm just wasting my time.

Half of your argument fell apart in your hands when you admitted that those stats are probably not reliable. The other half is starting to crumble with statements like "Well, admittedly, I don't watch Jeter play that often, so I have to rely on the other people that watch a lot more of Jeter than I do".

Save yourself the time and frustration and just watch more Yankees games.

[Senser81]

I was very surprised when I watched Game 1 of the Twins-Yankees series. Sure, Derek Jeter made nearly all the big plays and led his team to a comeback win, but what the heck was Joe Girardi doing playing Jeter at SS? Shouldn't he have put Jeter at DH?! This IS the playoffs. I think its just a disaster waiting to happen by playing the least effective defensive player in the MLB at the SS position.

My guess is that the Twins win the next 3 games and the Yankees get knocked out of the postseason.