Rosenthal: Valentine's approach in Boston stinks

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  • FirstTimer
    Freeman Error

    • Feb 2009
    • 18729

    Rosenthal: Valentine's approach in Boston stinks

    I’m tempted to call this a train wreck. Bobby Valentine in his first 12 games as Red Sox manager was every bit a train wreck. But with the season only 7 percent complete, it’s a bit early to get overheated, even over Bobby V.


    Valentine, 62, will be in trouble if he continues tangling with his players in the media. He will be in bigger trouble if he continues managing as if he doesn’t know his own team or the opponent.

    But while some in the game think Valentine might not last the season, much less complete his two-year contract, I’m not ready to bet against him as the Red Sox prepare to face the Yankees this weekend (Saturday, MLB on FOX, 4:10 p.m. ET).

    The hiring of Valentine, some rival executives say, was club president Larry Lucchino’s attempt to regain power in the organization. Lucchino is not going to admit defeat easily, if at all. Valentine, in turn, is not likely to quit one of the most prestigious jobs in the sport.

    The Sox’s schedule, hellish for the first 2 1/2 weeks, will be considerably easier over the next three once the Yankees series is complete. Injured players such as left fielder Carl Crawford, center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury and closer Andrew Bailey eventually will return. And if the team struggles, a good amount of blame will fall on new general manager Ben Cherington, enabling Valentine to gain greater influence.



    See what charity this represents, see the bow ties Rosenthal has worn and learn about BowTie Cause.

    Of course, Valentine is not exactly Teflon Bobby — he already is getting booed at Fenway by Red Sox fans who don’t buy his act. Still, in several interviews this week, Valentine admitted the obvious — that he is still adjusting to his new managing job, his first in the majors since 2002.

    Sitting in an ESPN booth or studio is not the same as sitting in a dugout. Managing the Red Sox, as second baseman Dustin Pedroia so bluntly pointed out, is different than managing in Japan. Valentine is dealing with new players, new forms of media. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.

    To a degree.

    Even those who dislike Bobby V admire his intellect, but strategically he both looks and sounds out of touch. Off the field? It’s the same old, same old, Bobby being Bobby.
    FIELD OF DREAMS
    As Boston's ballpark celebrates its 100th anniversary, relive Fenway Park's greatest moments.

    Valentine’s remarks about Kevin Youkilis caused an immediate backlash in his own clubhouse, and it’s difficult to accept the manager’s contention that he meant no harm to the third baseman.

    Youkilis is in decline. Valentine is a shrewd judge of talent. Maybe Valentine was laying the groundwork for the Sox to eventually trade Youkilis and promote their top prospect, third baseman Will Middlebrooks. Maybe Valentine doesn’t like Youkilis personally. But let’s not overthink this: When a manager says a player is not emotionally and physically invested, he’s attacking the player’s commitment.

    Valentine, after serving two years as an analyst for ESPN — and managing six-plus years in New York with the Mets — should understand the power of his own words.

    Yes, some fans and media revel in the comeuppance of players who earn millions. The Red Sox are an easy target after their fried-chicken-and-beer escapades last season. But the vast majority of managers, and virtually all of the good ones, never embarrass players publicly.



    Why?

    Because it rarely works.

    When Pedroia said, “That’s not the way we go about our stuff around here,” he almost certainly meant that most of the Red Sox players disdain such motivational ploys. If Valentine hasn’t lost the clubhouse completely, he certainly has lost the trust of many. His public rebuke by Pedroia, perhaps the team’s most respected player, told you all you needed to know.

    This did not just start with the Youkilis incident, either. The Red Sox, rival players say, started bristling under Valentine in spring training. One opponent says that the team does not seem as unified and cohesive as in the past. A rival executive noticed the team’s coaches sitting apart from Valentine on the bench, literally keeping their distance.

    Valentine’s saving grace, in previous managerial stints, was his baseball acumen. But now, even his game management is in question. Twice in the past week, he stayed too long with a pitcher — right-handed starter Daniel Bard on Monday, left-handed reliever Franklin Morales on Wednesday. Both decisions were scream-at-the-television howlers, prompting first-guessing, not just second-guessing.

    Bard, making only his second major league start, allowed two baserunners with two outs in the seventh inning of a scoreless game against the Rays. Valentine allowed him to face Carlos Pena, a left-handed hitter, and Pena walked to load the bases. Then, Valentine stuck with Bard against Evan Longoria, and Longoria walked to force home the game’s only run.

    So much for Bard feeling good about his outing.

    Morales entered his game in the eighth inning with the Red Sox trailing the Rangers 3-2. The Rangers loaded the bases against him with one out, but Valentine failed to lift Morales even after Rangers manager Ron Washington pinch-hit Craig Gentry for David Murphy, setting up a left-right matchup.

    OK, Morales had opened the season with four scoreless outings, and Gentry isn’t one of the Rangers’ biggest threats. But Morales hit Gentry to force in a run, and Valentine still allowed Morales to face Mike Napoli, who had the fourth-highest OPS in the AL against left-handed pitching last season.

    The result was predictable: A two-run double by Napoli, a 6-2 Rangers lead.



    As if that wasn’t bad enough, Valentine, in his postgame comments, referred to Gentry as a player “who hasn’t gotten a hit all year.” What series had Valentine been watching? Gentry had gone 3-for-6 against the Red Sox the night before.

    You can blame Cherington for trading for Bailey and Mark Melancon, the projected setup man who required almost an immediate demotion to Triple A. You can blame ownership for failing to retain closer Jonathan Papelbon or address the back of the rotation. But ultimately, a manager must win with the pieces he is given, no matter how flawed.

    Either Valentine starts doing that, or it’s all just a prelude to a train wreck.
  • Senser81
    VSN Poster of the Year
    • Feb 2009
    • 12804

    #2
    Valentine kind of reminds me of Mike Martz, in a way. I don't think he relates well to players at all.

    Comment

    • Chrispy
      Needs a hobby
      • Dec 2008
      • 11403

      #3
      Did anybody really think this was going to work out besides the redsox front office?

      One and done, if he lasts that long

      Comment

      • EmpireWF
        Giants in the Super Bowl
        • Mar 2009
        • 24082

        #4
        There's a reason the Wilpons never seriously considered bringing him back.

        Oh yeah, they're not total retards afterall!


        Comment

        • ThomasTomasz
          • Nov 2024

          #5
          I didn't think it would work, but it is for a completely different reason. Obviously, a harder approach than Francona isn't working right now. You can't go back to a player manager because they just had one, and it didn't end well.

          Now you see the problem is with your players. But how do you get rid of most of these guys when they are carrying large price tags and/or going to be devalued because the other teams in the league see these issues going on in Boston?

          There is no easy answer. It is a transition time for Boston right now, and I think that they will realize it after this season.

          Comment

          • IamMedellin
            Everything Burns...
            • Nov 2008
            • 10910

            #6
            Bobby V Makes this team Must watch




            Comment

            • NAHSTE
              Probably owns the site
              • Feb 2009
              • 22233

              #7
              Easy enough to blame the manager, but the team itself is pretty poorly constructed.

              Comment

              • kyhadley
                Carefree
                • Oct 2008
                • 6796

                #8
                Amazing to think how good this team was last summer, the best in baseball.

                What a rapid collapse.

                Comment

                • Goober
                  Needs a hobby
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 12271

                  #9
                  In my opinion Ben Cherington deserves more of the blame then Valentine.

                  LOL at him trading for these relief pitchers who fucking blow, and trading away quality bats so that he could sign Cody Ross.

                  Comment

                  • Slateman
                    Junior Member
                    • Apr 2009
                    • 2777

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Goobyslayer
                    In my opinion Ben Cherington deserves more of the blame then Valentine.

                    LOL at him trading for these relief pitchers who fucking blow, and trading away quality bats so that he could sign Cody Ross.
                    Bobby isn't responsible for the poor play on the field, but his passive-aggresive way of dealing with players is not going to win him fans. He's done this before. He shouldn't he going through the media like this.

                    But Perdroia and the Sox need to have a serious come to Jesus talk. The relaxed clubhouse they had last year led to them collapsing. "the way we do things around here" needs to go away.

                    The real question is whether the Sox will have a fire sale or simply fire Valetine and bring in someone else.
                    The king was shaken. He went up to the room over the gateway and wept.
                    As he went, he said: "O my son Absalom! My son, my son Absalom!
                    If only I had died instead of you
                    O Absalom, my son, my son!"

                    Comment

                    • NAHSTE
                      Probably owns the site
                      • Feb 2009
                      • 22233

                      #11
                      Yeah essentially it boils down to this for me:

                      -Bobby has lost the clubhouse, and rightfully so, because you don't criticize a veteran like Youk who has been there for longer than you have, and who the players are obviously going to side with. Just not a very smart motivational tactic there.

                      -Bobby has lost the fanbase, partly because of the Youk thing, but also because the team is playing atrociously and he's making lots of questionable decisions.

                      -Bobby is losing a ton of games, which is not entirely his fault for the reasons laid out by myself and Gob above. But he isn't making things any better for himself by enraging the fans and the players. Basically he has nothing left to protect him other than winning games. If that doesn't start happening soon, eh ....

                      Over/Under 60 games til he is shitcanned?

                      Comment

                      • Warner2BruceTD
                        2011 Poster Of The Year
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 26142

                        #12
                        In my line of work, we like to say "sales fix everything".

                        Winning will fix everything. I scoffed when people said Francona "lost the team" last year. That's just what writers say when things go horribly bad and need a jump point to write an article. Nobody would have known or cared about fried chicken or Xbox in the clubhouse had Boston made the playoffs, and Francona would still have his job.

                        If the Sox had won three in a row after the Youk comments, the same writers blasting Valentine now would be praising him for "lighting a fire" under his under performing team and creating a spark. It would look something like this:

                        "That's just what the Red Sox needed, what a brilliant wake up call provided by Valentine, picking out the perfect veteran to call out, showing moxie and guts and proving nobody is above board when it comes to effort!"

                        The Red Sox aren't a bad team right now because Valentine hurt a grown man's feelings, they are a bad team right now because they have a horrendous bullpen, the starting pitching has been bad, and they have three key injuries.

                        Comment

                        • kyhadley
                          Carefree
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 6796

                          #13
                          This has nothing to do with Valentine. How is it his fault that his bullpen can't get outs?

                          Great article by Peter Abraham on the issue here:

                          Here's the most startling thing about the state of the Red Sox: They have lost 30 of their last 41 games going back to 2011. That's 73 percent of their games over what amounts to a quarter of the season.

                          The 1962 Mets, the worst team in modern baseball history, were 40-120. They lost 75 percent of their games.

                          At least the Mets had an excuse, they were an expansion team loaded with old players, rookies, and rejects. The Red Sox have a $175 million payroll.

                          What happened Saturday at Fenway Park was incomprehensible. Felix Doubront left the mound after six innings and 99 pitches with a 9-1 lead. As a 24-year-old making his sixth career start, six innings and 99 pitches was more than anybody could have expected, especially against the Yankees.

                          Six relievers then allowed 14 runs on 12 hits and five walks. At one point,15 of 17 Yankee batters reached base via hit, walk, or error with 13 scoring.

                          "It all happened pretty quickly. It's all kind of confusing right now," Bobby Valentine said.

                          Nick Swisher had a grand slam off Vicente Padilla in the seventh inning and Mark Teixeira had a two-run double off Matt Albers. Alfredo Aceves was called in with a runner on first in the eighth inning to try and get a six-out save. He didn’t get a single out. Swisher had a two-run double. Teixeira followed two walks with another two-run double.

                          Russell Martin smacked a two-run double off Justin Thomas, the rookie lefthander who replaced Aceves. Swisher and Teixeira each had six RBIs.

                          Aceves has two blown saves in four chances and an earned run average of 24.00. He has failed to record an out in three of his six appearances. He couldn't throw a strike Saturday and when he did, it was hit.

                          Valentine was booed progressively louder each time he came to the mound to make a pitching change. After only 14 games, he has become the focus of fan angst.

                          Blame Valentine all you want. But it's not like he's ignoring obvious choices who could do better. A manager is only as good as the players he manages. The Red Sox have a bunch of players who simply don't belong on the roster.

                          "Very satisfied," GM Ben Cherington said about Valentine's job performance. "He makes the lineup out, makes decisions during the game. The players will always influence wins and losses more than anybody else, and that's no different here.

                          "He's doing the best he can with the roster he has. It'll get better, He knows that and I know that, and along the way if changes need to be made on the roster, that's my responsibility."

                          Speaking of which, you want Daniel Bard in the bullpen? He's still scheduled to start Sunday. Cherington said now is not the time to make rash decisions.

                          But one fairly easy move would be to bring up Aaron Cook from Pawtucket and use Bard as the closer. It would be a tough thing to do to Bard, who has pitched fairly well in two starts. But what choice to they have? Losing games because of a bad bullpen rips the guts out of a team.

                          As presently constituted, the Red Sox barely have a major league bullpen. Consider:

                          Alfredo Aceves: Released by the Yankees after the 2010 season. Pitched well last season but is miscast as a closer this year. In three of his six outings, has failed to get an out.

                          Matt Albers: Released by the Orioles after the 2010 season. Has allowed 26 earned runs in his last 26 innings over 26 appearances.

                          Scott Atchison: A 36-year-old who has shuttled between Boston and Pawtucket for parts of three seasons.

                          Franklin Morales: Obtained from the pitching-poor Rockies last season for a player to be named later. Has a career WHIP of 1.48.

                          Vicente Padilla: Before this season, appeared in 25 games over the previous two years.

                          Justin Thomas: A 28-year-old who prior to this season had appeared in 20 major league games. Spent last season with Pittsburgh's Triple A team.

                          Junichi Tazawa: Only 25, he has shown flashes but has not been the pitcher the Sox hoped when they signed him for $3.3 million out of Japan.

                          On a legitimate contender, only Aceves and maybe Morales have a meaningful role.

                          The Sox are hoping Rich Hill will be ready soon. The return of Daisuke Matsuzaka in a month would allow them to move a starter into the bullpen, perhaps Doubront.

                          In theory the Red Sox could have a bullpen of ...

                          Bard
                          Doubront
                          Hill
                          Aceves
                          Morales
                          Somebody else
                          Somebody else

                          ... by the beginning of June. That would be a vast improvement on what they have now.

                          It was ugly after the game. Valentine tried to point to positives in the game, saying at one point the result shouldn't overshadow what good transpired. By the time reporters arrived at the clubhouse, only a few players were remaining.

                          "Not talking today," David Ortiz said. Cody Ross also walked away. Dustin Pedroia and Adrian Gonzalez made hasty exits. It was scene reminiscent of last September's carnage.

                          Mike Aviles showed a lot of character, controlling his anger long enough to speak for his absent teammates. He also was candid.

                          "That shouldn't happen. We should play better all around. There's nothing really else to say. It wasn't fun. I'm sure it was fun on the other side but it wasn't fun on this side," Aviles said.

                          A few other notes and observations:

                          • Kevin Youkilis has a bruised left quad. No word on the severity of the injury. In other news, Will Middlebrooks is hitting .379 at Pawtucket with seven home runs and 22 RBIs in 16 games.

                          • The Yankees will be .500 at Fenway Park all-time with a win the final game of the series. The Sox are 459-458-4 against the Bombers at Fenway since 1912.

                          • Jarrod Saltalamacchia was 4 for 5 Saturday after starting the year 3 of 29.

                          • The Red Sox allowed seven runs in the seventh inning and seven more in the eighth inning to blow a 9-1 lead. If ever there was a day to skip "Sweet Caroline," in favor of some decorum, this was it.

                          But the song played and on one of the most embarrassing days in franchise history, people sang, "So good! So good!" like they were drunk at a wedding.

                          It's only a song and if people want to sing, so be it. But let's forget about the notion that Fenway Park is a tough place to play and is full of hard-core fans. Because it's not any more. It's a place where people gleefully sing a cheesy song after their team blows a nine-run lead.

                          Nobody is singing when they home team is getting embarrassed at Yankee Stadium or Citizens Bank Park. Bruins fans weren't singing at the Garden Saturday. Either winning really matters or it doesn't. If it does, put the silly song on the shelf during games like this.

                          • The best news? It's supposed to rain like crazy Sunday. Not even the Red Sox can lose a rainout.

                          Comment

                          • Chrispy
                            Needs a hobby
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 11403

                            #14
                            I know I'm not saying it is all his fault, he does take some fault however since he is the manager. I mean intentionally walking guys when there are no outs?

                            Comment

                            • kyhadley
                              Carefree
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 6796

                              #15
                              Originally posted by cpollack09
                              I know I'm not saying it is all his fault, he does take some fault however since he is the manager. I mean intentionally walking guys when there are no outs?
                              Why does it matter that there are no outs? The decision to walk someone doesn't depend on outs, the strategy behind it is still the same. He'd rather give them a free pass to first then risk they make it further with the bat.

                              Comment

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