And we wonder why SABR types are so snarky ...

[Glenbino]

Anthony Rizzo also has 18 RBIs to go along with his 17 hits for a .200 batting average.

Yeah but those 17 hits were obviously super clutch. This cannot be discounted!

[Villain]

Yeah but those 17 hits were obviously super clutch. This cannot be discounted!

8 home runs, 2 doubles. He's slugging over .500

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yeah but those 17 hits were obviously super clutch. This cannot be discounted!

Maybe they were? Just because "clutch" may not be a repeatable skill, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

But even if they weren't, instead of being smart and analyzing things to put them into context, let's disregard a stat completely, just because of the occasional anomaly. That makes sense.

[Glenbino]

Maybe they were? Just because "clutch" may not be a repeatable skill, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

But even if they weren't, instead of being smart and analyzing things to put them into context, let's disregard a stat completely, just because of the occasional anomaly. That makes sense.

Except there are already statistical categories for his doubles and homers. The fact that his teammates were able to get on base and score doesn't make one HR more valuable than the other and tells us nothing about the performance of the individual the stat is attributed to that we couldn't have ascertained from the HR and 2B stats themselves.

RBI is fine as a team stat but it's redundant and pointless on the individual level.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Except there are already statistical categories for his doubles and homers. The fact that his teammates were able to get on base and score doesn't make one HR more valuable than the other and tells us nothing about the performance of the individual the stat is attributed to that we couldn't have ascertained from the HR and 2B stats themselves.

RBI is fine as a team stat but it's redundant and pointless on the individual level.

Don't be silly. Of course a three run homer is more valuable that a solo homer. If I hit 30 three run homers, and you hit 30 solo homers, sorry pal, but my 30 homers were more valuable. Did luck play a part in making them more valuable? Yup. But that's too bad. Life isn't fair, fella. And neither are goofy baseball stats.

No single stat tells a complete story. RBI certainly doesn't. Look, I don't love RBI. All i'm saying, is that the idea that they mean zilch and are to be disregarded is just as stupid as using them alone to compare or evaluate. Like any raw counting number, when combined with other numbers, they help tell a story.

[SuperKevin]

I never understood the RBIs are worthless argument. Last I checked you needed to score runs to win baseball games.

Then again I'm just a casual baseball fan

[Glenbino]

I never understood the RBIs are worthless argument. Last I checked you needed to score runs to win baseball games.

Then again I'm just a casual baseball fan

Yes driving in runs is an important team accomplishment.. But your teammates being on base when you hit the ball isn't exactly an individual accomplishment as every other offensive stat on the back of a baseball card is.

[Villain]

Yes driving in runs is an important team accomplishment.. But your teammates being on base when you hit the ball isn't exactly an individual accomplishment as every other offensive stat on the back of a baseball card is.

Yeah like bullpen wins.

Seriously fuck that stat.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Two batters, same team.

Batter A goes 2-4, with 2 solo HR's, and 2 K's with the bases loaded. The HR's came with the score 10-3 & 11-3. The K's come when his team is trailing.

Batter B goes 2-4, with 2 grand slams, and 2 K's with the bases empty. The first home run came with the team down 3-0, and the second home run came with the score 4-3. The K's come when the game is already well in hand.

People like glen and dorks like Keith Law call this game equal. Normal people know that player B had a far superior game.

[Goober]

The average Slateman post>this thread.

[NAHSTE]

Whoa, I realized the Atlanta table setters were sucking but I didn't realize it was this bad. Despite batting 3rd in every game this season, Justin Upton has had just 12 at bats with runners in scoring position.

[Villain]

The average Slateman post>this thread.

Please, oh wise baseball mathematician genius, tell us how we are all wrong.

[NAHSTE]

Whoa, I realized the Atlanta table setters were sucking but I didn't realize it was this bad. Despite batting 3rd in every game this season, Justin Upton has had just 12 at bats with runners in scoring position.

Last night during the broadcast they said it was 17. Anyway, it was less than half the RISP opportunities Miggy Cabrera has seen batting 3rd for his team.

(Cabrera is a fucking monster though. Just a devourer of souls at the plate. Good thing there are lots of other numbers which can be used to illustrate this fact.)

[dell71]

As far as I'm concerned W2B is clearly winning this thread but still wanted to add my $0.02.

I grew up on counting stats and have evolved in my thinking to incorporate plenty of the new-fangled metrics when evaluating players. People on both sides agree that it takes a plethora of stats to tell the story. Part of the disconnect with some (not all) hard-core SABR guys is in trying to whittle everything down to only what a particular player can be deemed responsible for they're eliminating part of the story. Don't worry, guys that are strictly old-school are just as guilty. By ignoring the metrics they're pretending that new ways of thinking are ruining the sanctity of the sport even though the way we evaluate players has been constantly changing since the 1800s.

[Senser81]

As far as I'm concerned W2B is clearly winning this thread but still wanted to add my $0.02.

LOL at this. With so many people chiming in to help with W2B's argument, I'd say that W2B has the advantage of posting with "runners on base", whereas Glenbino is stroking solo HR after solo HR. They are equal, IMO.