Best pitcher of all time?

[Sven Draconian]

Note that I did not ask greatest, so GTFO with anybody who played before WWII. That era was not competitive enough to produce the "best of all time," even if they had greater levels of dominance.

Without really pouring through it I get Clemens, Pedro, Maddux and Randy Johnson as the only real contenders, with Pedro probably being the pick. I think Koufax could fall into the conversation, but obviously has longevity issues. Bob Gibson is tough to evaluate because of the era. His ERA+ and WAR don't match up, but there is an ERA floor... to match some the modern guys he would have to post ERA's in the 1's every season (ala 1968).

[Glenbino]

Never really got to see Nolan play. It's either Clemens or the Big Unit from my perspective.

Johan's tenure in Minnesota was probably the greatest stretch of sustained superior pitching I've seen but he feel off too hard at the end.

[manchild24]

I would have to say:

Maddox. clemens, Unit, and I hate to say Mariano Rivera

[Glenbino]

I would have to say:

Maddox. clemens, Unit, and I hate to say Mariano Rivera

[manchild24]

he just said best pitcher, didnt say starter or closer.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Nolan Ryan shouldn't even enter the outskirts of the conversation.

This http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ohnswa01.shtml would have been my pick, but the cutoff in the OP is WWII, so i'm going with Koufax or Pedro Martinez.

[SuperKevin]

How do you know Walter Johnson wouldn't be just as dominant today?

Just clicked on Warners link and noticed he was thinking the same thing

[Sven Draconian]

Nolan Ryan shouldn't even enter the outskirts of the conversation.

This http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ohnswa01.shtml would have been my pick, but the cutoff in the OP is WWII, so i'm going with Koufax or Pedro Martinez.

You're free to make a case for why a player who played against a talent pool roughly one fifth the size of modern players is the best of all time. Based on the US population, there were about 100 million people who were eligible to play baseball (IE, not black/mexican). From that pool you have active minor leaguers who competed for talent, geographic realities (if you are playing baseball in west texas or louisiana, scouts are not likely to find you) which cuts the pool even further. I guesstimate we are talking about 80 million or so was the real talent pool

Modern players are pulled from a pool of about 700 million (US, baseball playing latin countries, japan, korea, plus some minor credit for countries like Italy, the Netherlands and Australia which produce a little). They are developed through a modern farm system and are truly professionals (off-seaosn training rather than selling cars or whatever).

Edited to add: While 700 million is about 10 times bigger than 70, pre expansion you have 16 teams for 70 million (4.6 mil per team) vs the current 30 teams for the 700 million (23 million per team). Then rounded a bit.

[Warner2BruceTD]

You're free to make a case for why a player who played against a talent pool roughly one fifth the size of modern players is the best of all time. Based on the US population, there were about 100 million people who were eligible to play baseball (IE, not black/mexican). From that pool you have active minor leaguers who competed for talent, geographic realities (if you are playing baseball in west texas or louisiana, scouts are not likely to find you) which cuts the pool even further. I guesstimate we are talking about 80 million or so was the real talent pool

Modern players are pulled from a pool of about 700 million (US, baseball playing latin countries, japan, korea, plus some minor credit for countries like Italy, the Netherlands and Australia which produce a little). They are developed through a modern farm system and are truly professionals (off-seaosn training rather than selling cars or whatever).

I can only judge players based on how well they did against their given competition.

Babe Ruth may very well have never gotten out of single A in 2013, or maybe he would have been a bench player, or a .230/25 HR DH, or maybe his career would have ended in high school. Bottom line, is I don't care. He was so above and beyond his contemporaries that to me, he is the greatest player of all time.

I think it's silly to cross compare players of different eras any other way. There is a good chance Corey Patterson would have dominated in the 1890's. Still doesn't measure as a pimple on Cap Anson's ass in my view.

[Sven Draconian]

I can only judge players based on how well they did against their given competition.

Babe Ruth may very well have never gotten out of single A in 2013, or maybe he would have been a bench player, or a .230/25 HR DH, or maybe his career would have ended in high school. Bottom line, is I don't care. He was so above and beyond his contemporaries that to me, he is the greatest player of all time.

I think it's silly to cross compare players of different eras any other way. There is a good chance Corey Patterson would have dominated in the 1890's. Still doesn't measure as a pimple on Cap Anson's ass in my view.

I agree, which is why I think greatest is a different argument than best. However, when you look at any semi-credible list of greatest pitchers of all time you end up with a ton of pre-1940s guys. No doubt those guys dominated, but I find it very hard to believe that 12 of the 15 greatest to ever live happened to be playing in a 30 year stretch in an era where getting to play in the majors was as much about luck and timing as your talent.

[Warner2BruceTD]

I agree, which is why I think greatest is a different argument than best. However, when you look at any semi-credible list of greatest pitchers of all time you end up with a ton of pre-1940s guys. No doubt those guys dominated, but I find it very hard to believe that 12 of the 15 greatest to ever live happened to be playing in a 30 year stretch in an era where getting to play in the majors was as much about luck and timing as your talent.

Fair enough.

For sheer peak dominance, I chose Pedro & Koufax.

[JimLeavy59]

Ben Sheets.

[NAHSTE]

Maddux

[FedEx227]

Since we have to go post-WWII I'll do Clemens, Maddux or Pedro but lean heavier on Clemens.

I will not however that even with team/league adjusted statistics, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Kid Nichols and Lefty Grove all grade out extremely well. I understand Sven's point but that's why we have stats that regulate for the era, the ballparks and the offensive prowess of the time.

[Sharkweather]

I will not however that even with team/league adjusted statistics, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Kid Nichols and Lefty Grove all grade out extremely well. I understand Sven's point but that's why we have stats that regulate for the era, the ballparks and the offensive prowess of the time.

Mathewson?