"3-4 best prospects" is the price for Cliff Lee

[NAHSTE]

If you're a team like the (hypothetically) the Orioles...you feel you got a chance at making the playoffs and making a run but want that top of the line pitcher...do I give up say...Dylan Bundy, Gausman, and Schoop.

You're god damn right I do.

That's dumb.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

That's dumb.

How so?

Bundy is now three years away from being anything.
Gausman had a rough first stint in the majors, and again, could be years before he's anything decent.
Schoop is an unknown.

You corncobs value prospects way too much.

The chances of those three coming anywhere close to Lee is slim and none and if they are, its years away.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Not for a pitcher in his 30's with that much money owed to him. And I do agree with you on prospects are overrated, but when you have two guys who could be #1 ace pitchers, and that is what your team lacks now, you hold onto those guys, especially when BOTH are almost locks for your rotation next year.

Honestly, I would be hard pressed to give up one of Gausman or Bundy for Lee, much less both. Not saying I wouldn't do it for one of them, but it isn't a slam dunk like you are saying.

You know who would be a lock for my rotation as my #1 guy.

Cliff Lee.

Didn't Baltimore go through this with Zach Britton and Brian Matusz. If you can acquire something thats already elite...you get it. We ain't talking about a bum here or a one year wonder or even a mid-level player. We talkin' bout an ace.

Also, take into account you have a better chance winning this year, or next year with Lee than you do in those two years with Goose and Bundy.

[NAHSTE]

How so?

Bundy is now three years away from being anything.
Gausman had a rough first stint in the majors, and again, could be years before he's anything decent.
Schoop is an unknown.

You corncobs value prospects way too much.

The chances of those three coming anywhere close to Lee is slim and none and if they are, its years away.

Look at the successful teams (hint: Oakland and Tampa Bay have the best records in the AL, also have the 2nd and 3rd lowest payrolls) and how they are doing things. Young, cost-controlled talent is how smart clubs do it.

Giving up 6-years of team control on Bundy and Gausman for 3 years of (slightly) overpaying Cliff Lee, when that's not even guaranteed to put you over the top because the playoffs are a crapshoot anyway? No thanks.

[Guest]

You know who would be a lock for my rotation as my #1 guy.

Cliff Lee.

Didn't Baltimore go through this with Zach Britton and Brian Matusz. If you can acquire something thats already elite...you get it. We ain't talking about a bum here or a one year wonder or even a mid-level player. We talkin' bout an ace.

Also, take into account you have a better chance winning this year, or next year with Lee than you do in those two years with Goose and Bundy.

None of them had the billing of a true "ace" that both Bundy and Gausman had.

Like I said, I would be reluctant to deal one. I would heavily consider it. Both? Nope, not going to do it, even if I had the farm system depth of a better system.

[Villain]

Are the Phils chipping in salary though? It's tough to give up 6 years of cost control in exchange for Cliff Lee for 3 years/77 million. Not an untradeable contract by any means, it could very well be fair value over the next two years, but I'd like a little help on the dollars to sweeten the pot if I'm surrendering cheaper, younger talent. Year 3 at $27.5 million is more or less dead money.

They want 3 prospects and you have to take on the entire salary. To me, there has to be a middle ground. I'm happy to take on the salary but I'm not going to punt the farm for a 34 year old who's owed 70MM bucks.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Look at the successful teams (hint: Oakland and Tampa Bay have the best records in the AL, also have the 2nd and 3rd lowest payrolls) and how they are doing things. Young, cost-controlled talent is how smart clubs do it.

Giving up 6-years of team control on Bundy and Gausman for 3 years of (slightly) overpaying Cliff Lee, when that's not even guaranteed to put you over the top because the playoffs are a crapshoot anyway? No thanks.

Look at the real successful teams (hint: ones that won World Series)...San Francisco acquires Pence for a FORMER TOP PROSPECTZ...the year before St. Louis trades TOP PROSPECTZ COLBY RASMUS for pieces.

Also, wtf is this madness about overpaying Cliff Lee? He's a top pitcher, he gets paid like a top pitcher, and funny, unlike some pitchers in his salary range, he's actually earning his paycheck by BEING A TOP PITCHER.

As for guarantees of playoff wins...sitting tight and doing nothing guarantees you aren't winning it.

This is the same kind of shit talk I heard from Mets fans every year.

Derp Derp...NOZ don't trade Lastings Milledge for prime Roy Halladay or Manny Ramirez!! NOOOO, don't trade Ferny Martinez for (funny) Cliff Lee!!

[Villain]

Look at the real successful teams (hint: ones that won World Series)...San Francisco acquires Pence for a FORMER TOP PROSPECTZ...the year before St. Louis trades TOP PROSPECTZ COLBY RASMUS for pieces.

Also, wtf is this madness about overpaying Cliff Lee? He's a top pitcher, he gets paid like a top pitcher, and funny, unlike some pitchers in his salary range, he's actually earning his paycheck by BEING A TOP PITCHER.

As for guarantees of playoff wins...sitting tight and doing nothing guarantees you aren't winning it.

This is the same kind of shit talk I heard from Mets fans every year.

Derp Derp...NOZ don't trade Lastings Milledge for prime Roy Halladay or Manny Ramirez!! NOOOO, don't trade Ferny Martinez for (funny) Cliff Lee!!

I agree that Cliff Lee is not overpaid. I agree that he is worth a top prospect (or two, plus some other guys further down). I don't agree that he's worth the top 3-4 prospects. Multiple guys out of the top 5 is more than I'd want the Dodgers to give up. If it's more like one guy from the top 5, another from about 6-10, and then two guys from 11-25 - I can live with that.

Cliff Lee is fucking good.

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I agree that Cliff Lee is not overpaid. I agree that he is worth a top prospect (or two, plus some other guys further down). I don't agree that he's worth the top 3-4 prospects. Multiple guys out of the top 5 is more than I'd want the Dodgers to give up. If it's more like one guy from the top 5, another from about 6-10, and then two guys from 11-25 - I can live with that.

Cliff Lee is fucking good.

Yes he is, and yet, we're talking about the postseason, when waiver wire pick ups like Cody Ross, or scrapheap relievers, are pointed to after the fact as the piece that "put teams over the top" ... It's a total crapshoot. Randy Johnson ain't help the Astros get there, CC ain't help the Brewers get there, etc.

Getting an "ace" at the deadline is nice, but it guarantees you nothing. Makes sense in the right deal, but it's not worth mortgaging your future over.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Yes he is, and yet, we're talking about the postseason, when waiver wire pick ups like Cody Ross, or scrapheap relievers, are pointed to after the fact as the piece that "put teams over the top" ... It's a total crapshoot. Randy Johnson ain't help the Astros get there, CC ain't help the Brewers get there, etc.

Getting an "ace" at the deadline is nice, but it guarantees you nothing. Makes sense in the right deal, but it's not worth mortgaging your future over.

Always overrated.

Also, nothing is a guarantee, neither is your "future" with these cost controlled young minor league players. There might be one MAYBE two pitchers in all of the minor leagues that will ever be as good as Cliff Lee AT 34.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Yes he is, and yet, we're talking about the postseason, when waiver wire pick ups like Cody Ross, or scrapheap relievers, are pointed to after the fact as the piece that "put teams over the top" ... It's a total crapshoot. Randy Johnson ain't help the Astros get there, CC ain't help the Brewers get there, etc.

Getting an "ace" at the deadline is nice, but it guarantees you nothing. Makes sense in the right deal, but it's not worth mortgaging your future over.

You don't help yourself by mentioning Randy and CC.

Did those teams win it all? No. But, lets look at what they gave up.

Matt LaPorta (zOMG, top prospect in beisbol1!!), Zack Jackson, Rob Bryson, and Taylor Green for CC Sabathia.

Carlos Guillen, Freddy Garcia, and John Halama for Randy Johnson.

You wouldn't give up that pile of bums, journeyman, and occasionally decent players for a chance with these players? What future was truly mortgaged?

If not, you

[NAHSTE]

You don't help yourself by mentioning Randy and CC.

Did those teams win it all? No. But, lets look at what they gave up.

Matt LaPorta (zOMG, top prospect in beisbol1!!), Zack Jackson, Rob Bryson, and Taylor Green for CC Sabathia.

Carlos Guillen, Freddy Garcia, and John Halama for Randy Johnson.

You wouldn't give up that pile of bums, journeyman, and occasionally decent players for a chance with these players? What future was truly mortgaged?

If not, you

But you are talking about Dylan Bundy.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

But you are talking about Dylan Bundy.

Who just had Tommy John and won't be MATT HARVEYZ until 2015...maybe??

You actin like we talkin about Tim Lincecum in 2013.

[Goober]

So Jimmy Nelson, Taylor Jungmann, and Johnny Hellweg? Lets do this Ruben.

[Villain]

Yes he is, and yet, we're talking about the postseason, when waiver wire pick ups like Cody Ross, or scrapheap relievers, are pointed to after the fact as the piece that "put teams over the top" ... It's a total crapshoot. Randy Johnson ain't help the Astros get there, CC ain't help the Brewers get there, etc.

Getting an "ace" at the deadline is nice, but it guarantees you nothing. Makes sense in the right deal, but it's not worth mortgaging your future over.

But it's not a rental. You get him for two more years. 2.5 seasons of Cliff Lee is probably better than having one of your top pitching prospects turn out to be a #4 starter in 3 years.

I'm with you in that I don't want to trade the farm for him, but if it's the Dodgers top pitcher plus a few guys from further down the list, I'm all for it. Of course the price has to be right. Like I said, more than one guy out of our top 5 would be too much.