Gammons on pace of game, run environment, pitching changes, etc.

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • NAHSTE
    Probably owns the site
    • Feb 2009
    • 22233

    Gammons on pace of game, run environment, pitching changes, etc.

    Proposes some possible solutions to these issues...

    Bluehost - Top rated web hosting provider - Free 1 click installs For blogs, shopping carts, and more. Get a free domain name, real NON-outsourced 24/7 support, and superior speed. web hosting provider php hosting cheap web hosting, Web hosting, domain names, front page hosting, email hosting. We offer affordable hosting, web hosting provider business web hosting, ecommerce hosting, unix hosting. Phone support available, Free Domain, and Free Setup.


    We all understand how hard Major League Baseball is working to quicken the pace of game, addressing shrinking attention spans and what one member of the study committee calls “the fragmented and competitive entertainment landscape.”

    We understand why instant replay is important to a younger generation, and, in fact, it has gotten increasingly efficient and credible in the early stage of its work in progress. And they have worked really hard to get it as right as it can be.

    We understand that young pitchers today come in throwing 93+ MPH; hey, the Marlins had an intrasquad game this spring with 11 pitchers who threw between 96 and 101, and Nate Eovaldi, who has the highest average velocity of any starting pitcher in the game in 2013-14, didn’t even pitch that day.

    We understand the decline in skilled, athletic college players, as the NCAA has all but eliminated scholarships and any chance minorities or poor kids can afford college baseball while the leaders of the NCAA roll in their football sugar daddies’ arms. In an effort to take agents out of the draft process, rewriting the draft has virtually eliminated any chance baseball can challenge bigtime college football for athletes.

    But the National League on base average is .312, which means the league average player isn’t as good as Ruben Tejada. The American League average slugging percentage is .394, which means that the average American League player’s slugging percentage is lower than Houston’s Chris Carter, a .172 hitter. We get the younger attention span concept, we all hope that the rules of engagement can allow major league players to show the same level of fun that all of us had when we were 13.
    When, in the past, offensive arms went off, they looked at these:

    Runs Per Game 1968, 1972
    Indeed, 1968 was a period of indomitable pitching, of Bob Gibson’s 1.12 earned run average, Luis Tiant’s 1.60 ERA for the Indians, with 9 shutouts, 258 1/3 innings, 152 hits, 264 strikeouts. So they changed the rules, lowering the mound from 15 to 10 inches.

    It so happens that 1969 was also an expansion season, and history has shown the impact of expansion on pitching (go back and watch “Sixty One,” arguably the best baseball film ever made), and appreciate that the Maris/Mantle show came the first year of expansion with the Los Angeles Angels and Washington Senators. But by 1972, runs were again at a premium, there were historic players like Henry Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Orlando Cepeda and Ron Blomberg ready to hit with limited exposure to the field. And they called it the Designated Hitter. In a league then dominated by the Oakland and Baltimore markets, it made sense. So they changed, because tweaking isn’t twerking. It can work, in thoughtful moderation.

    Where we are since industry-wide drug testing was put in place before the 2005 season:

    Runs Per Game 2005, 2014

    The point was that in 1968 and 1972 they were willing to try rule changes, which other sports have done, sometimes excessively, but to adjust to trends and to what is tending on Twitter. ”Could we be seeing what the game looks like not only without PEDs but without amphetamines (that were accepted in the Fifties, Sixties and Seventies)?” asks one club executive. “We are also dealing with a lack of impact players coming into our game. The talent pool is shrinking. We focus on (Mike) Trout and Bryce Harper and some of our great young players, but after that it becomes problematical.” Look no further than this year’s draft. No impact position players, especially at the infield and outfield corners.
    In 2005, the Red Sox really wanted Jacoby Ellsbury, who was a leadoff hitter with great athleticism, with the 23d pick. That was the first year of full drug testing, and Boston GM Theo Epstein predicted “the game is going to change, and we’d better be preparing for that change.”

    The Red Sox were hoping they could get a little-known outfielder from The College of Charleston in the third round named Brett Gardner. They figured Gardner would slide to them in the third round and took a catcher named Jon Egan in the second. Egan did not pan out. The Yanks grabbed Gardner ahead of them in the third round.

    And how much has the game changed? Never mind that Ellsbury has hit double figures in homers once in his career. Gardner and Ellsbury went into Sunday’s games sixth and seventh, respectively, in WAR among American League outfielders. While we watch Dee Gordon with the Dodgers and Billy Hamilton with the Reds and wait on Micah Johnson with the White Sox and Mookie Betts with the Red Sox and see how increasingly important speed is becoming, we need to address another issue.

    “It is ridiculous that impact lefthanded hitters like Joey Votto, David Ortiz, Shin-Soo Choo, Chase Utley and Anthony Rizzo will almost never face a righthanded pitcher from the seventh inning on,” says one National League GM. “Can’t we see some great hitters hit with games on the line? This whole matchups thing gets carried away, but everyone has two or three Randy Choates to throw at a Votto.”

    Experienced managers howl in laughter and advise that MLB post orthopedic surgeons’ phone numbers in every clubhouse when the matchup computers get overloaded in the third or fourth innings of games and their managers are forced to be warming up right and lefthanders in the early innings. Pace of game? Is it thrilling to see five or six pitching changes a game? In 1972, a team used an average of 2.94 relievers per game. In 1992, 4.29. Now it’s 5.96.

    What baseball needs is fewer pitching changes, fewer matchups; on July 27, 1979, the Orioles beat the White Sox 12-7, it was 8-5 in the fourth inning, Earl Weaver left Mike Flanagan in to throw a complete game and did so in 2:48. My suggestion is to limit rosters to 11 pitchers, which would open rosters to a hitter who could act as third catcher in extra-inning games, or a Tony Phillips kind of versatile performer. They could require that a reliever either finish an inning or have to face three hitters, but this way relievers would be required to have to retire batters from both sides of the plate and be groomed not to throw 3-5 pitches, but have to be used to 4-6 outs. Starters should pitch seven innings. Relievers should be able to get six outs on both sides of the plate.

    That would limit matchups. Limit stalling while the next Randy Choate heats up to face Utley or Votto. Pace of game? Limit the number of combined visits by managers and pitching coaches to two a game—between them.

    We have reams of pages of statistical data on why it’s dangerous to allow a starting pitcher to face a lineup the third time around the order. “I asked our guy whether we’re allowed to have 25 man pitching staffs,” laughed one veteran pitching coach. “Take away the value of starting pitchers’ innings and we’ll make a lot of surgeons a lot of money.”
    In many ways the sport is in a golden era, certainly the best it has been run in terms of business. But there are disturbing numbers that indicate that fans aren’t going to flock to games decided by corner kicks, sidearming one pitcher matchups and five to seven pitching changes a night.

    We all love Charlie Blackmon, Brian Dozier and Dee Gordon. But when they comprise a third of the top nine players in the game in WAR…

    It’s worth at least a few new and creative ideas. How many 13 and 15 year olds are beginning to ask, “Is this becoming The Deadball Era, or is this the Polar Vortex?” Come the All-Star Break, it’s worth studying.
  • Warner2BruceTD
    2011 Poster Of The Year
    • Mar 2009
    • 26142

    #2
    Peter Gammons hates Randy Choate.

    What are the pace of game numbers this year? Feels like every Reds game I watch is over before 9 central, under three hours. I feel like lack of offense has shortened games.

    I don't buy the idea that 11-man pitching staffs would tax arms. It would at first, but that's only because we've conditioned pitchers the way we have. For decades baseball featured 6, 7, 8 man pitching staffs and guys who threw 300+ innings. There is no reason that can't be done today, especially with modern training methods, modern science/medicine, and higher caliber athletes.

    I wouldn't rush into rules changes. Let the shifting strategies play out. Gammons mentioned speed players becoming more attractive. Stolen base attempts are up. Home runs feel meaningful for the first time in like 25 years. Let it breath.

    Comment

    • NAHSTE
      Probably owns the site
      • Feb 2009
      • 22233

      #3
      Originally posted by Warner2BruceTD
      Peter Gammons hates Randy Choate.

      What are the pace of game numbers this year? Feels like every Reds game I watch is over before 9 central, under three hours. I feel like lack of offense has shortened games.

      I don't buy the idea that 11-man pitching staffs would tax arms. It would at first, but that's only because we've conditioned pitchers the way we have. For decades baseball featured 6, 7, 8 man pitching staffs and guys who threw 300+ innings. There is no reason that can't be done today, especially with modern training methods, modern science/medicine, and higher caliber athletes.

      I wouldn't rush into rules changes. Let the shifting strategies play out. Gammons mentioned speed players becoming more attractive. Stolen base attempts are up. Home runs feel meaningful for the first time in like 25 years. Let it breath.
      Yeah it seems odd that he started out talking about the pace of the game then focused more on the run environment. Not sure how related the two issues are. I think we can all agree fewer pitching changes would be welcome however.

      Nobody is buying a ticket to see Tony LaRussa walk to the mound 5 times a game.

      Comment

      • Villain
        [REDACTED]
        • May 2011
        • 7768

        #4
        Originally posted by NAHSTE
        Nobody is buying a ticket to see Tony LaRussa walk to the mound 5 times a game.
        I should hope not.

        And, yeah, I'm with Warner. What's this sudden urgency that sportswriters have for changing the game? Why are more runs a good thing? I like watching awesome pitchers. All this talk about attention spans, etc. seems to ignore the fact that the number one sport in the entire rest of the world is soccer, where a 0-0 draw is a perfectly acceptable finish for the fans.
        [REDACTED]

        Comment

        • ThomasTomasz
          • Nov 2024

          #5
          Originally posted by Warner2BruceTD

          What are the pace of game numbers this year? Feels like every Reds game I watch is over before 9 central, under three hours. I feel like lack of offense has shortened games.
          This. I'd really like to see a breakdown or average of each team's game from the past year and compared to 10 years ago. I've been to many games this year and last year at Oriole Park, and I feel like I'm getting cheated out of some baseball, as many games are over before 10 pm on a 7 pm start. I swear I remember a game last year that was over by 9:40.

          Comment

          • ThomasTomasz
            • Nov 2024

            #6
            Originally posted by Villain
            I should hope not.

            And, yeah, I'm with Warner. What's this sudden urgency that sportswriters have for changing the game? Why are more runs a good thing? I like watching awesome pitchers. All this talk about attention spans, etc. seems to ignore the fact that the number one sport in the entire rest of the world is soccer, where a 0-0 draw is a perfectly acceptable finish for the fans.
            Because this isn't the whole world, this is 'Merica, where we love NFL and NCAA football blowouts and most despise soccer. I can appreciate the comparison, but it's not good in this conversation.

            Comment

            • Villain
              [REDACTED]
              • May 2011
              • 7768

              #7
              Originally posted by ThomasTomasz
              This. I'd really like to see a breakdown or average of each team's game from the past year and compared to 10 years ago. I've been to many games this year and last year at Oriole Park, and I feel like I'm getting cheated out of some baseball, as many games are over before 10 pm on a 7 pm start. I swear I remember a game last year that was over by 9:40.


              In 2000, games were 3.02 hours long. By 2004, that had dipped to 2.85 hours on average. In 2009, it was 2.92. But by last year it was up to 3 hours and 4 minutes per. So far this year those games are about 3 hours and 8 minutes long.
              Research your heart out: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/so...hp?cid=1667169
              [REDACTED]

              Comment

              • ThomasTomasz
                • Nov 2024

                #8
                Thanks for the links, and allow me to clarify one of the previous posts. I get the point about soccer, and I agree with it. The mouth breather fans don't, they just want to see the long ball and games with 10 or more runs combined between teams. A pitchers duel doesn't get them excited and doesn't make much sense to them, unless it's two aces going against each other of course.

                Comment

                • Villain
                  [REDACTED]
                  • May 2011
                  • 7768

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ThomasTomasz
                  Thanks for the links, and allow me to clarify one of the previous posts. I get the point about soccer, and I agree with it. The mouth breather fans don't, they just want to see the long ball and games with 10 or more runs combined between teams. A pitchers duel doesn't get them excited and doesn't make much sense to them, unless it's two aces going against each other of course.














                  They seem pretty excited.
                  [REDACTED]

                  Comment

                  • dell71
                    Enter Sandman
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 23919

                    #10
                    Cutting back the number of pitchers each team can have is interesting. I like the idea, but it probably won't happen. I agree with Warner that pitchers would be fine throwing more, but all the pitching gurus are so adamant about pitch counts and how great they are for arms they've effectively shouted down anyone who disagrees.

                    Some other ideas on how to shorten games:

                    Expand the strike zone back to what it once was. I grew up playing baseball and was always taught that the strike zone extended from your knees to your armpits. I remember watching lots of pitchers, Goose Gossage in particular get guys out with the "rising fastball." It was called a strike if it crossed the uni-letters, so guys had to swing at it. Handling 97mph up around your shoulders is a lot more difficult than timing up 100mph right down the middle which is practically where you have to throw it to get a called strike. Now, guys just let that high pitch sail by and we just keep adding to that precious pitch-count.

                    Enforce your own time limit rules on pitchers! When they started worrying about game length a few years back (10 or 15 yrs, I guess) MLB actually put rules in place that state a pitcher must deliver the ball within 12 seconds of getting it back from the catcher, if the bases are unoccupied. When have you ever seen that one called? If there are runners on, the ump can call a balk if the pitcher "unnecessarily" delays the game. I'm still waiting on the ump with enough balls to call that one. And God forbid the Yanks and Red Sox are playing on ESPN. Everyone on the field goes into super-slo-mo. You can practically take naps between pitches.

                    Bring back the bullpen carts. Part of the pitching change problem. Used to be, in parks where the bullpen was behind the outfield wall, when a reliever was called in that wall would open up and a golf cart pimped out with the team logo driven by the team valet or something would zoom out and deliver the pitcher to the mound. Quick and easy. Ever since the movie Major League, every relief pitcher has to take his slow ass time strutting to the mound while the song of his choice blares from the speakers in its entirety. Really? All that so we can watch you face one hitter and watch the next guy do the same shit? And this is coming from a guy who absolutely loved Mo' Rivera and got caught up in all the "Enter Sandman" stuff. Still, enough is enough. Get these scrubs out to the mound expeditiously so he can face his one guy and hit the showers.

                    Please give me some time limits and other rules on batters. There really is no reason other than some self-invented psychological ones why a batter has to step out of the batter's box and go through some ridiculous routine after every freaking pitch. We've all seen it. Even after a pitch he hasn't swung at some guy will step out of the box, adjust his helmet, gloves, nutsac, whisper sweet nothings to his bat, say a little prayer, take a deep breath, step back in, and take a few warm-up cuts before he's ready. Hey dick, the pitcher's on a shot clock, get your shit together quicker. Even worse is when, after going through all of that mularkey, and the pitcher starts winding up, the batter calls time. Know what's worse than that? The umpire grants it to him almost every single time even though he doesn't have to. I'd be perfectly fine if they didn't let anyone step out of the batter's box during their entire plate appearance, but since that won't happen, give me some kind of limit. And instruct umps not to grant time once a pitcher has started his throwing motion. It's basically like a defensive team in football calling timeout not only after the ball has been snapped, but a pass is in flight. Ridiculous.

                    Shorten the damn commercial breaks. I know, more commercials means more money for the MLB so this has absolutely zero chance of happening. Still, this is probably the biggest culprit in lengthening games along with all the pitching changes. The commercial break is really meant to be the length of time it takes for teams to get into position between innings. This used to be a one minute, maybe a minute and a half process. Now, since we have to see as many beer and ED commercials as possible we're up to what, two and a half, three minutes between innings? And it's the same for nearly every pitching change, too. I got it already, we like beer and our dicks don't work. Can we please move on?
                    Last edited by dell71; 05-07-2014, 11:11 AM.

                    Comment

                    • dell71
                      Enter Sandman
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 23919

                      #11
                      Originally posted by dell71
                      Please give me some time limits and other rules on batters. There really is no reason other than some self-invented psychological ones why a batter has to step out of the batter's box and go through some ridiculous routine after every freaking pitch. We've all seen it. Even after a pitch he hasn't swung at some guy will step out of the box, adjust his helmet, gloves, nutsac, whisper sweet nothings to his bat, say a little prayer, take a deep breath, step back in, and take a few warm-up cuts before he's ready. Hey dick, the pitcher's on a shot clock, get your shit together quicker. Even worse is when, after going through all of that mularkey, and the pitcher starts winding up, the batter calls time. Know what's worse than that? The umpire grants it to him almost every single time even though he doesn't have to. I'd be perfectly fine if they didn't let anyone step out of the batter's box during their entire plate appearance, but since that won't happen, give me some kind of limit. And instruct umps not to grant time once a pitcher has started his throwing motion. It's basically like a defensive team in football calling timeout not only after the ball has been snapped, but a pass is in flight. Ridiculous.
                      Addendum: There are actually rules in place for the batter. They're just judgement calls, though.

                      Originally posted by MLB.com
                      Rule 6.02:
                      The batter shall take his position in the batter’s box promptly when it is his time at bat.
                      (b) The batter shall not leave his position in the batter’s box after the pitcher comes to Set Position, or starts his windup.
                      PENALTY: If the pitcher pitches, the umpire shall call “Ball” or “Strike,” as the case may be.
                      (c) If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter’s box during his time at bat, the umpire shall call a strike on the batter. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance. After the penalty, the batter may take his proper position and the regular ball and strike count shall continue. If the batter does not take his proper position before three strikes have been called, the batter shall be declared out.
                      (d) The following rule shall be in effect for all National Association Leagues:
                      (1) The batter shall keep at least one foot in the batter’s box throughout the batter’s time at bat, unless one of the following exceptions applies, in which case the batter may leave the batter’s box but not the dirt area surrounding home plate:
                      (i) The batter swings at a pitch;
                      (ii) The batter is forced out of the batter's box by a pitch;
                      (iii) A member of either team requests and is granted “Time”;
                      (iv) A defensive player attempts a play on a runner at any base;
                      (v) The batter feints a bunt;
                      (vi) A wild pitch or passed ball occurs;
                      (vii) The pitcher leaves the dirt area of the pitching mound after receiving the ball; or
                      (viii) The catcher leaves the catcher's box to give defensive signals.
                      Notwithstanding Rule 6.02(c), if the batter intentionally leaves the batter’s box and delays play, and none of the exceptions listed in Rule 6.02(d)(1)(i) through (viii) applies, the umpire shall award a strike without the pitcher having to deliver the pitch. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance. The umpire shall award additional strikes, without the pitcher having to deliver the pitch, if the batter remains outside the batter’s box and further delays play.
                      Do that shit!

                      Comment

                      • Senser81
                        VSN Poster of the Year
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 12804

                        #12
                        I remember Charlie Finley wanted to speed up the pace of the games, so he installed a "pitch clock" (kind of like an NBA shot clock) at the Oakland A's stadium, and it would count down from 20 or whatever the time limit was back in the 1970's. The umpires hated this, and the result was that they call balls/balks on only the A's pitchers.

                        I've always wanted to see a "Gary Sheffield Rule" for batters, which would simply be once the batter enters the batter's box, he cannot leave until after the pitcher has thrown his pitch. I hated watching Gary Sheffield step in to the batter's box...then step out...then step in...then step out. Kind of annoying. It would be like the NFL having no play clock, and the QB just calls signals at the line for 5 minutes straight, hoping the defense will eventually jump offsides.

                        A more radical rule would be to treat baseball like most other sports...coaches & managers aren't allowed on the field at any point of the game. If you want to make a pitching change, you call down to the bullpen, and the relief pitcher goes in during the next dead ball and the current pitcher departs the mound. Simple stuff. If you go on the field to argue a call, you are most likely going to get tossed.

                        Comment

                        • dell71
                          Enter Sandman
                          • Mar 2009
                          • 23919

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Senser81
                          I remember Charlie Finley wanted to speed up the pace of the games, so he installed a "pitch clock" (kind of like an NBA shot clock) at the Oakland A's stadium, and it would count down from 20 or whatever the time limit was back in the 1970's. The umpires hated this, and the result was that they call balls/balks on only the A's pitchers.

                          I've always wanted to see a "Gary Sheffield Rule" for batters, which would simply be once the batter enters the batter's box, he cannot leave until after the pitcher has thrown his pitch. I hated watching Gary Sheffield step in to the batter's box...then step out...then step in...then step out. Kind of annoying. It would be like the NFL having no play clock, and the QB just calls signals at the line for 5 minutes straight, hoping the defense will eventually jump offsides.

                          A more radical rule would be to treat baseball like most other sports...coaches & managers aren't allowed on the field at any point of the game. If you want to make a pitching change, you call down to the bullpen, and the relief pitcher goes in during the next dead ball and the current pitcher departs the mound. Simple stuff. If you go on the field to argue a call, you are most likely going to get tossed.
                          Neither has much chance of happening but I like em.

                          Comment

                          • Villain
                            [REDACTED]
                            • May 2011
                            • 7768

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Senser81
                            I've always wanted to see a "Gary Sheffield Rule" for batters, which would simply be once the batter enters the batter's box, he cannot leave until after the pitcher has thrown his pitch. I hated watching Gary Sheffield step in to the batter's box...then step out...then step in...then step out. Kind of annoying. It would be like the NFL having no play clock, and the QB just calls signals at the line for 5 minutes straight, hoping the defense will eventually jump offsides.
                            Yeah, but when you've got someone like Beckett on the mound, that fucker is just going to stand on the rubber for like 5 years before delivering the pitch. There are also of times that happen, when there's a runner on 1st that they are trying to hold, where a pitcher will have zero intention of throwing a pitch until the batter steps out. I think relievers are the worst sinners for this one. They nod to the catcher, then fucking freeze. They are just statues up there trying to psyche the hitter out. I don't blame hitters for stepping out when that happens. That's a long time to stand there in anticipation of a pitch. So, if you create that rule, you'll also have to enforce a pitch clock.
                            [REDACTED]

                            Comment

                            • Jayrock
                              mini MJ
                              • Apr 2012
                              • 1828

                              #15
                              Really? Putting in these stupid ass pitch and batter play clocks would not even shave 5 minutes off of a game. Stop being dumb.

                              Comment

                              Working...