Ben Wallace Hints At Retirement

[FirstTimer]

"a meager 2nd team all NBA defense" -- that's a good one

For a guy who was a 4 time DPOY and 4 time All NBA defensive 1st team coming into Chicago, yeah I'd say it's pretty meager compared to past accomplishments.

[Kuzzy Powers]

Actually it does. Wallace was barely a shadow of what he seemed to be with the Pistons. It's obvious Wallace as a player was overrated when he was in Detroit because of who he was surrounded by.

Take Wallace away from the Pistons and he wasn't even sniffing All-NBA first teams of the All Star team. That tells you a lot about how his perception as a great defender in Detroit wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

I never said Wallace was a scrub so settle down. He just wasn't as good as he appeared to be when he was in Detroit.



I was talking in general for best post defenders I have seen in the last decade or so. Rodman>>>Wallace obviously. If anything Rodmans career shows how a true great post defender's career should go. No matter what team Rodman was on he was a great defender and rebounder. Didn't matter. Same with KG, etc. Take Wallace away from the Pistons and he does nothing. Again, Wallace was not as good as advertised with the Pistons.




Prince and Billups>>Wallace defensivly on those teams.

Ok except Dennis Rodman is completely irrelevant. I said you could only put Wallace behind 2 players during his playing time at most, and you mentioned Dennis Rodman. Lol @ "im just mentioning Rodman cause hes the best ive seen". No, you mentioned Rodman because you thought he applied and had to back peddle when he didnt. Sorry.

What did you expect Wallace to do when he went from a great defensive system (THAT HE ANCHORED) to a team that played no Defense and was full of young talent that hadnt even learned how to play defense in the NBA yet? I guess a meager "2nd round all-defensive team" isnt enough for someone like you. I guess the NBA giving the guy 4 DPOY and 4 all-defensive 1st team awards has zero merit. I mean.. the whole NBA had to be wrong and you right. It only makes sense.

The guy was a beast of a defender in Detroit. He never lived up to whatever expectations you had for him in Chicago. You saying Billups and Prince > him doesnt make it so. Wallace PROVING himself with tons of awards and accolades, aswell as the respect of the NBA is much more solid evidence of how good Wallace is, sorry.

And pretty much what you're saying is any good defensive player playing in a defensive system is overrated? What about Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan? The Spurs are a great defensive system, does that make Duncan an overrated defender? Definitely not.

[FirstTimer]

Ok except Dennis Rodman is completely irrelevant. I said you could only put Wallace behind 2 players during his playing time at most, and you mentioned Dennis Rodman. Lol @ "im just mentioning Rodman cause hes the best ive seen". No, you mentioned Rodman because you thought he applied and had to back peddle when he didnt. Sorry.

Actually no, I'm not back peddling. I mentioned Rodman because he was the best I had ever seen and frankly was just skimming your unintelligable BS. Frankly, I just quit reading line for line.

You say facts and numbers prove Wallace wasn't overrated as a Piston. Yet you have yet to show any. I showed you facts and numbers that prove he was overrated. Care to share yours?

What did you expect Wallace to do when he went from a great defensive system (THAT HE ANCHORED) to a team that played no Defense and was full of young talent that hadnt even learned how to play defense in the NBA yet?

LOL at this. Wow. Those young Bulls teams were known for their defensive mindset and were some viewed as one of the better young defensive teams in the NBA when they made playoff runs before Wallace arrived. They were ranked 7th and 16th in the NBA in the two years prior to Wallace. Skiles was a defensive minded coach. Those Bulls teams were built around defense and grinding out the game and jump shooting.

I guess a meager "2nd round all-defensive team" isnt enough for someone like you. I guess the NBA giving the guy 4 DPOY and 4 all-defensive 1st team awards has zero merit. I mean.. the whole NBA had to be wrong and you right.

Way to miss the point.

The guy was a 4 time DPOY and 4 Time All NBA first team. That's what the Bulls pad for, so no a meager 2nd NBA defensive team is not enough. Wallace dropped off with the Bulls. He made a habit of getting beat around during games and had big issues in the locker room. This has all been documented. How can people not look back and say, "You know, maybe Wallace himself wasn't as good as we thought and he was more a product of the system than an individually great player." The point, that you miss over and over, is that: People thought they had it right at the time but in retrospect were proved wrong in regards to Wallace's percieved greatness.

The guy was a beast of a defender in Detroit. He never lived up to whatever expectations you had for him in Chicago.

Expectations I had for him? As if it's just me and not the entire NBA. Ha!

Wallace PROVING himself with tons of awards and accolades, aswell as the respect of the NBA is much more solid evidence of how good Wallace is, sorry.

What are you NOT understanding about this? Honestly? is it so tough? The awards and accolades Wallace got in Detroit and his complete drop off the very next season after leaving shows that those awards and accolades were perhaps not a true indicator of how great he really was and he was not as good as the accolades said. Thus Wallace, while good in Detroit, was truly not as great as he was percieved in retrospect and thus overrated.
Jesus.

And pretty much what you're saying is any good defensive player playing in a defensive system is overrated? What about Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan? The Spurs are a great defensive system, does that make Duncan an overrated defender? Definitely not.

Kind of tough to judge since Duncan didn't go onto another team outside the system and not do a thing....Apples and Oranges

[FirstTimer]

but since you think he didn't deserve the awards anyway, what's your point?

Is this a real question or are you just trying to seem dense? The Bulls were signing the player that won those awards and would live up to winning them. He didn't. Thus he would be overrated.

and to clarify, you are saying that being named to the 2nd all-def team is "doing nothing"?

Yes...when in the context of talking about signing a guy who was the 4 time DPOTY, and All Star, and An NBA 1st team defender....yes. A 2nd Team All NBA defense is doing nothing and not doing what you were brought into do.

you may want to familiarize yourself with the concept of players declining as they age. in wallace's case, the fact that he was 6'9" 240 then compounded matters because his being undersized at center then began to actually matter. that doesn't mean he was overrated when he played for detroit -- far from it

The drop off started AS SOON AS HE PUT ON A BULLS UNIFORM. It's not as if he had some good seasons then aged and dropped off. He dropped off starting with his first season not playing for the Pistons.

do per-48 minute averages do anything for you?

No.

[Kuzzy Powers]

Yes, you were back-peddling. I wouldnt expect someone so hard-headed to be able to admit that tho. There was no other reason to mention Rodman in reply to my comment.. I said 2 guys were ahead of Wallace TOPS, you added Rodman. He didnt apply.. you back-peddled. Thats how it went.

I dont need to post stats, Buser did that for me. They obviously flew right over your head, not that that surprises me.

What point am I missing? It seems to me that you're completely missing the fact that Wallace was a great defender. So whatever im missing it fails in comparison to what you are missing. Maybe if Wallace won DPOY once you could say "meh it was a fluke, he was overrated". But 3 times? And 3 times all-NBA defensive team? Please.

And what @ being known for defense.. when has Chicago ever been known for his defense? The team had the likes of Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, and Luol Deng.. that was the young core. Outside of Nocioni and MAYBE a young Chandler who was a big defender on that team before PJ Brown arrived the next year? Come on now..

[Kuzzy Powers]

And BTW, this whole notion of Wallace falling off as soon as he got into a Bulls uniform as false aswell. Wallace was simply on a steady decline and the Bulls overpaid for him. Infact, everyone was saying AT THE TIME that the Bulls were over-paying for him.

2002: 15.4 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 3.2 blocks
2003: 12.4 rebounds, 1.8 Steals, 3.0 blocks
2004: 12.2 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 2.4 blocks
2005: 11.3 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 2.2 blocks
2006: 10.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 2.0 blocks
2007: 8.8 rebounds, 1..4 steals, 1.6 blocks

Dude was just on a steady decline.. but in his peak years, the guy was the ELITE of defensive post-players in the NBA. Noone was better, period. He has never had the most physical talent but is a hard worker and just swatted balls at the rim at will. He didnt get to enjoy a long hey-day, his decline was steady, he ran into injuries.. and now hes pretty much only good for trying to contain a man in the post. I just dont see how this guy was overrated.. he played on a great team, of course thats going to help, as it would help ANY player in NBA history. He declined hard but was a great defensive player at a time.

[FirstTimer]

Yes, you were back-peddling. I wouldnt expect someone so hard-headed to be able to admit that tho.

Actualyl no I wasn't.

I didn't read. I just skimmed that section. Saw two names adn assumed incorrectly that you were discussiong recent great post defenders. I was incorrect in that assumption. Big fucking deal.

LOL at saying I didn't know Rodman was a shell when Wallace broke in.

DID YOU KNOW HE PLAYED IN ORLANDO TOO? OMGZ! You never mentioned that. I'll just assume you didn't know it.

Dumb ass.

There was no other reason to mention Rodman in reply to my comment.. I said 2 guys were ahead of Wallace TOPS, you added Rodman. He didnt apply.. you back-peddled. Thats how it went.

It obviously didn't,.

I've explained twice now what happened. Are you too high to understand this?

I dont need to post stats, Buser did that for me. They obviously flew right over your head, not that that surprises me.

No he didn't. He posted awards. Show me the stats you have. Come on.

What point am I missing?

The one I've been pointing out for pages. Go back and re-read.

It seems to me that you're completely missing the fact that Wallace was a great defender.

Because he wasn't. He was very good. Not great.

So whatever im missing it fails in comparison to what you are missing. Maybe if Wallace won DPOY once you could say "meh it was a fluke, he was overrated". But 3 times? And 3 times all-NBA defensive team? Please.

Actually 4 times. Get your own "stats" right. Also, why would he drop off playing for the SAME TEAM IN THE SAME SYSTEM? If anything the system catered to him so of course he would keep putting up great numbers. He leaves the system and immedietly drops offs. Coincidence? Ha!

And what @ being known for defense.. when has Chicago ever been known for his defense? The team had the likes of Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, and Luol Deng.. that was the young core. Outside of Nocioni and MAYBE a young Chandler who was a big defender on that team before PJ Brown arrived the next year? Come on now..

Hinrich is viewed as a good defender. So they had: Hinrich, Chandler, Duhon, and Noc who were all known to be good defenders, or at least that was the upside in their games. Skiles preached defense first and was a hard ass coach who grated on players. When thoe Bulls teams were at their best(pre-Wallace) they were known as "grindy" defenders and jump shooters who played hard on the defensive end of the floor.

What the hell are you saying the Bulls weren't known for focusing on D under Skiles?

[FirstTimer]

Is this a real question or are you just trying to seem dense? The Bulls were signing the player that won those awards and would live up to winning them. He didn't. Thus he would be overrated.
so since the bulls overpaid him, he was overrated in detroit?

You can't be serious.

Wallace, if he made 3 cents a game in Chicago would have been overrated in Detroit because of his complete lack of production compared to the past...............including the immedeltly preceding season.

Yes...when in the context of talking about signing a guy who was the 4 time DPOTY, and All Star, and An NBA 1st team defender....yes. A 2nd Team All NBA defense is doing nothing and not doing what you were brought into do.
see, that's where you are going to lose most people. if you thought he was going to win multiple DPOYs with the bulls then you needed A REALITY CHECK THEN and continue to need on NOW

I never said he should have won multiple DPOTY awards in Chicago. The point is he wasn't even in the discussion and nevers showed anything close to what he was in Detroit while in Chicago.......

The drop off started AS SOON AS HE PUT ON A BULLS UNIFORM. It's not as if he had some good seasons then aged and dropped off. He dropped off starting with his first season not playing for the Pistons.
actually it started WHILE HE WAS IN DETROIT. his numbers and -- stay with me -- his subsequent impact on the court declined between his first DPOY award and his last (but that's more of a commentary on how FUCKING AWESOME he was in his prime than anything). his numbers actually declined more in his last two seasons in detroit than they did in his last season in detroit and his first in chicago. FEEL FREE TO LOOK THAT UP

I already did. And his drop off started in Chicago. He was making All Star teams and defensive first teams in Detroit the season before he went to the Bulls.

In Chicago he made a shitty cheap shoe, bitched about a headband, and suspened Joakim Noah. Declining =/= drop off.

And BTW, this whole notion of Wallace falling off as soon as he got into a Bulls uniform as false aswell. Wallace was simply on a steady decline and the Bulls overpaid for him. Infact, everyone was saying AT THE TIME that the Bulls were over-paying for him.

2002: 15.4 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 3.2 blocks
2003: 12.4 rebounds, 1.8 Steals, 3.0 blocks
2004: 12.2 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 2.4 blocks
2005: 11.3 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 2.2 blocks
2006: 10.6 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 2.0 blocks
2007: 8.8 rebounds, 1..4 steals, 1.6 blocks

Dude was just on a steady decline.. but in his peak years, the guy was the ELITE of defensive post-players in the NBA. Noone was better, period. He has never had the most physical talent but is a hard worker and just swatted balls at the rim at will. He didnt get to enjoy a long hey-day, his decline was steady, he ran into injuries.. and now hes pretty much only good for trying to contain a man in the post. I just dont see how this guy was overrated.. he played on a great team, of course thats going to help, as it would help ANY player in NBA history. He declined hard but was a great defensive player at a time.

Again, see above.

2006(Last season in Detroit): NBA Defensive Player of Year, All NBA First Team Defense, NBA All Star, 2nd Team All NBA

2007: (In Chicago): 2nd team All NBA Defense(2007)

2008: None.

That's it.

LOL at Wallace "declining" slowly in Detroit. He fell off the map as soon as he left that system. Coincidence?

[Kuzzy Powers]

Acutally, moron, Buser posted stats from the very first fucking post, if you didnt have your head in your ass you wouldnt seen that. But again, I wouldnt expect any better from you.

Lets start from the back-end.. Hinrich is an average defender. The Bulls have never been known for D and never will be a defensive team. Scott Skiles could preach them to do whatever he wants, but the Bulls were never a great defensive team. A young Duhon and Noci dont equal good defense.

He didnt immediately drop off. He was on steady decline. You want to make it seem like it was an immediate drop off because it supports your argument, however, you fail at doing this because the numbers I posted clearly show a steady decline. Maybe you were the only person in the world that didnt realize this. If so, thats your own fault.

Whether or not you consider him great is your opinion, but the opinion of respected NBA writers and players > yours, IMO.

Again, you're not going to admit you back peddled because you're too hard headed to do so. When Wallace got to Detroit Rodman was already out of the league. Wallace obviously wasnt recognized for much of anything while getting fringe minutes in Washington and Orlando. And you still have nothing to dispute the fact that you can only say 2 legitimately put 2 post defenders from Wallace's hey-day up there WITH Wallace, those being KG and Duncan. So this all concludes to you failing at pointing out anything through this whole thread.

Wallace was a great defender in his prime. End of story.

[Kuzzy Powers]

You can't be serious.

Wallace, if he made 3 cents a game in Chicago would have been overrated in Detroit because of his complete lack of production compared to the past...............including the immedeltly preceding season.


I never said he should have won multiple DPOTY awards in Chicago. The point is he wasn't even in the discussion and nevers showed anything close to what he was in Detroit while in Chicago.......



I already did. And his drop off started in Chicago. He was making All Star teams and defensive first teams in Detroit the season before he went to the Bulls.

In Chicago he made a shitty cheap shoe, bitched about a headband, and suspened Joakim Noah. Declining =/= drop off.




Again, see above.

2006(Last season in Detroit): NBA Defensive Player of Year, All NBA First Team Defense, NBA All Star, 2nd Team All NBA

2007: (In Chicago): 2nd team All NBA Defense(2007)

2008: None.

That's it.

LOL at Wallace "declining" slowly in Detroit. He fell off the map as soon as he left that system. Coincidence?

Are you a moron? The 2006 stats I posted were from his first year in Chicago, and are not even that much of a decline from the year before in Detroit. If you're so fucking moronic as to even see that then I dont know what to tell you.

[Kuzzy Powers]

i say we give it a few more posts and then bail if we still haven't made progress. we've come this far...

Believe me.. theres zero hope with FT. This guy is as hard headed as they come.

[FirstTimer]

you are truly something... first you say he didn't deserve any of his awards because he was the product of his system. then you use them as "proof" for his drop-off once the stats show that there wasn't much drop-off.

I never said he didn't deserve any of his awards. Find me that quote.

I said his accolades in Detroit were overrated in retrospect because of the system he played in and his complete lack of production thereafter.

btw, does 6th in the voting count for being "in the discussion" for DPOY?

No.

Are you a moron? The 2006 stats I posted were from his first year in Chicago, and are not even that much of a decline from the year before in Detroit. If you're so fucking moronic as to even see that then I dont know what to tell you.

It's still a decline. I don't give a fuck by how much.

2006 awards=2005-2006 season.

Look at what he did in his last year in Detroit.

Look at what he did immedietly afterwards.

Notice the drop off the face off the earth and not some "slow decline"?

[Kuzzy Powers]

I never said he didn't deserve any of his awards. Find me that quote.

I said his accolades in Detroit were overrated in retrospect because of the system he played in and his complete lack of production thereafter.



No.



It's still a decline. I don't give a fuck by how much.

2006 awards=2005-2006 season.

Look at what he did in his last year in Detroit.

Look at what he did immedietly afterwards.

Notice the drop off the face off the earth and not some "slow decline"?

Look at the god damn numbers you fool. The decline from his last year in Detroit and his first year in Chicago arent dramatic, but they do fall in with the STEADY DECLINE we've been trying to tell you about for the last hour! Its the drop in his 2nd year in Chicago that is actually more dramatic than anything else.

[Kuzzy Powers]

This shit is absolutely ridiculous anyways. The mere fact that you're calling a 4 time DPOY award winner, a 4 time 1st-team all-defensive player, a 1 time all-defensive 2nd team player (WITH THE FUCKING BULLS NO LESS) overrated is ridiculous. Beyond everything else.. the mere fact that the NBA and everyone recognized this guy as a great defender and you're not just shows how foolishly hard-headed you are.

[FirstTimer]

Look at the god damn numbers you fool. The decline from his last year in Detroit and his first year in Chicago arent dramatic, but they do fall in with the STEADY DECLINE we've been trying to tell you about for the last hour! Its the drop in his 2nd year in Chicago that is actually more dramatic than anything else.

I've seen the numbers. I've looked at them. I lived them because I actually watched Wallace play in Chicago.....

If they "aren't that dramatic" then why the complete fall off the map awards wise? Oh yeah, maybe because Wallace finally got exposed in Chicago for what he truly was. A good defender that was unfoundedly labeled as "great" while playing with the Pistons and by definition an overrated product of the system.

Gee...

This shit is absolutely ridiculous anyways. The mere fact that you're calling a 4 time DPOY award winner, a 4 time 1st-team all-defensive player, a 1 time all-defensive 2nd team player (WITH THE FUCKING BULLS NO LESS) overrated is ridiculous. Beyond everything else.. the mere fact that the NBA and everyone recognized this guy as a great defender and you're not just shows how foolishly hard-headed you are.

Oh wow a 2nd Team All NBA Defense a year after sweeping the league wide defensive awards. Man. What a stud.

/sarcasm.