Jordan shares his disappointment of Heat Big Three

[bucky]

^^^ Loved Moncreif's game. He played on some excellent Bucks teams with Marques Johnson in the early 80s. Unfortunately, they played in the same conference with Bird's Celtics and Dr.J's Sixers. They beat Boston in the '83 playoffs only to lose to that great Philly team that would sweep LA in the Finals.

Like me, you're old enough to have seen him play and remember him. I loved his game too. Milw, Philly had some great playoff series. What a great Era for Basketball. Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, and then MJ's Bulls.

[jeffx]

Very disappointing they were never able to get over the hump.

They tried, but Boston and Philly were on another level back then.

[FirstTimer]

Disagree. Moncrief would score most of his 20+ points a game in the second half, when most teams knew he was getting the ball.

Pippen was scoring 20+ a night for the Bulls when teams knew he was getting the ball with Jordan not being there.

He was VERY strong for his size and would routinely post up. He had an above average 3 point shot and a good jump shot. Plus he was great at getting to the foul line. And he was a much better defensive player than he was an offensive player. Moncrief > Pippen.

All of the things you just named off were true of Pippen as well..except Pippen was better from long range, the better rebounder, shot blocker, passer, etc.

This is what Jordan says about Moncrief:

I'm sure you could find Jordan saying similar things about a lot of players from that era if he was asked. That quote doesn't really tell me much other than that Moncrief played hard on defense and was good at it.

Moncrief was a great defender with two Defensive Player of the Year awards. I don't ever recall Pippen taking that honor. I think MJ took it once.

I also recall Pippen being on 8 All NBA Defensive 1st teams. And 2 2nd teams.

Moncrief made 4 1st teams and 1 2nd.

Yeah the DPOY awards are nice but over the course of the career it's clear Pippen was the more well respected defender. Pippen was finishing consistantly high up in DPOY rankings losing to gusy like Rodman, Payton, Mutombo, Olajuwon, D. Robinson etc. It's not as if Pieppen wasn't in the discussion and was losing out to guys who were flashes in the pan or not HOF'ers in some cases. Ben Wallace has more DPOY awards than Pippen too but I don't think any sane person would argue Wallace>Pippen on defense.


Pippen's also in the HOF...Moncrief isn't so that has to count for something as well.

[jeffx]

Like me, you're old enough to have seen him play and remember him. I loved his game too. Milw, Philly had some great playoff series. What a great Era for Basketball. Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, and then MJ's Bulls.

Shit, I remember Sidney from his Arkansas days. He part of the 'Triplets' with Marvin Delph and Ron Brewer. Helluva talent.

[Miami Flash15]

And it's much worse legacy wise because he followed. He seemingly wasn't the leader that called everyone else to come with him.

That's where I think Jordan is even a bit wrong with his quote. This situation is like Jordan joining up with Isiah to the Pistons. Even if MJ called Larry and Magic and got together, Jordan is still looked at as the alpha-male and probably the best player on that squad.

Even though LeBron IS the best player on the Heat, he still is second fiddle.

Always will be and that goes for anyone with Wade in Miami, it's Wade's team. I'd be pissed if everyone(especially all these bandwagons in Miami) say it's LeBron's team.

[FedEx227]

So how can you possibly believe that doesn't take away from LeBron's legacy like you stated earlier?

"Yeah he was the best ever, even though he played second fiddle for 6 years of his prime..."

[Th3ChosenOne]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

[bucky]

I also recall Pippen being on 8 All NBA Defensive 1st teams. And 2 2nd teams.

Moncrief made 4 1st teams and 1 2nd.

Yeah the DPOY awards are nice but over the course of the career it's clear Pippen was the more well respected defender.

I just looked up there career defensive stats per game, and Pippen's stats are better. It's hard to judge defense w/o watching both players. Stats don't tell the entire story. The best stat doesn't show up, and that is keeping your guy from even touching the ball.

From the things that can be compared, the only concrete thing we have to go on, the numbers are yours, so I'll concede.

Wow, how about that, an Internet Poster tipping their hat to someone in a discussion!!!

[FedEx227]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

Not if you professed a desire to be considered the greatest basketball player ever. This isn't Gary Payton or Clyde Drexler we're talking about here.

[jeffx]

Like me, you're old enough to have seen him play and remember him. I loved his game too. Milw, Philly had some great playoff series. What a great Era for Basketball. Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, and then MJ's Bulls.

Also, there was genuine hatred between certain teams back in the day. It didn't get any nastier than Celtics/Pistons. No friendship there - they wanted to take each other's heads off. We saw some of that during the 90s when the Knicks battled the Bulls, Pacers & Heat. The basketball wasn't pretty, but it was INTENSE. That's why I loved what Boston & LA did in Game seven of this year's finals - it was the kind of basketball I missed.

[FedEx227]

I just looked up there career defensive stats per game, and Pippen's stats are better. It's hard to judge defense w/o watching both players. Stats don't tell the entire story. The best stat doesn't show up, and that is keeping your guy from even touching the ball.

From the things that can be compared, the only concrete thing we have to go on, the numbers are yours, so I'll concede.

Wow, how about that, an Internet Poster tipping their hat to someone in a discussion!!!

Defensive Win Shares actually show Sidney had a few absolutely amazing years, however over the course of a 17-year career Pippen was consistently great. Sidney's 1981-1985 is probably the best run of DWS in history.

[Juggernaut]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

It depends really.

If i want to be the best player in NBA history, I don't take any short cuts. If I'm joe schmo (Mike Miller) I take that contract and I ride it out, knowing I don't have a 'legacy' to leave behind.

No one is pissed LeBron left just to win, most people are pissed he left to be second fiddle somewhere and essentially threw out him being the best ever.

[jeffx]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

But if I'm "The Man", I'm recruiting cats to play on MY team.

[FirstTimer]

I think he just wants to WIN. Isnt that what its all about?

So you guys are telling me if you had the choice to play on a Really good team that is almost guaranteed championships or play on a team that is good but not that much better than the team your already on after you failed 7 years in a row to win a ring. You wouldnt go to the team where your going to win the most?

For a player like Chris Bosh I might buy this explanation..but for a player like Lebron James I don't think it holds any weight. Lebron James was supposed to the center piece for title teams and was supposed to be one of the GOAT...or perhaps even the GOAT one day. Everyone had higher expectations for him than to join a team with two other superstars in some other players city just to win championships. Lebron was/is supposed to win championships as "the man". Wade, Bosh etc were supposed to come to him...not the other way around. This isn't Barkley going to the Rockets in 98, or Malone/Payton chasing rings at 35. This is the guy who was supposed to be the GOAT chasing championships at 25 damaging his legacy.

[Miami Flash15]

So how can you possibly believe that doesn't take away from LeBron's legacy like you stated earlier?

"Yeah he was the best ever, even though he played second fiddle for 6 years of his prime..."

Well, straight up LeBron want's to win, just like any other player. If he couldn't win in Cleveland, why would he stay there? Why would you stay in Cleveland knowing you cannot win? They haven't made any significant changes asides from their coach and that won't be enough to go against Orlando and Boston. No one want's to play in Cleveland, just look at Bosh, he said he wanted to play with LeBron, just not in Cleveland. Chicago and Miami presented the best positions for him to win at. If he went to Chicago, he would've "played in Jordan's shadows".

Like I said, I may be a little bias since LeBron is now on my team. But, IMO, it all comes down to winning. Of course, winning one in Miami won't be the same as winning on in Cleveland for numerous amounts of reasons, but he never really had a clear shot to win in Cleveland.

Would his legacy still stay the same if he stayed in Cleveland and not win any titles? Or would people be like "oh, he should've gone elsewhere, like Miami or Chicago when he had the chance because both teams presented him the best case to win."

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I know his legacy after going to Miami won't be the same, I know it'll significantly change.8