Tweet
Thought you NBA guys might be interested in this.
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in The Association.
Question: Who is the early-season MVP?
BUCHER: There have been several teams with superstars to thank for their surprisingly good starts this season, making for a rather interesting MVP race after the first trimester. Deron Williams, Dirk Nowitzki, Amar'e Stoudemire, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard all have had terrific starts for winning teams. I'm not sure how my top five would shake out, but I don't have any doubts about who is at the top of my ballot at this point: Derrick Rose of the Chicago Bulls.
BROUSSARD: I don't think there's a clear-cut MVP at this point of the season, but if I had to pick right now I'd go with Amar'e Stoudemire. A guy that probably no other team would have signed to the five-year, $100 million contract the New York Knicks gave him last summer has been nothing short of terrific, both on and off the court. He's playing the best ball of his career and leading a resurgence of one of the NBA's historic franchises.
RB: Amar'e has been far better without Steve Nash than I expected, in large part because his midrange jumper has been automatic all season. And a lot of guys, for whatever reason, play worse, at least initially, after signing a big contract. But -- and you knew one was coming -- when I watch the Knicks play, I don't see Amar'e elevating everyone else's game, which is what I think of when it comes to MVP. Amar'e draws attention, for sure, but New York doesn't run its offense through him to set up other guys and teams rarely double-team him. He's just the best of a crew taking advantage of Mike D'Antoni's up-and-down system. Wilson Chandler, Landry Fields, Danilo Gallinari and Raymond Felton are all making significant contributions, but I'm not sure I'd credit Amar'e for what they're doing -- outside of Felton -- or even say this is the best I've seen from him. He's just playing more minutes and has had a bigger role against one of the league's softest opening schedules.
CB: That's where you're wrong, my friend. Sure, Amar'e isn't dropping dimes and running the offense out of the post -- though he is averaging a career-high 2.4 assists. But his mere presence has made all the Knicks better. Chandler and Gallinari have been in D'Antoni's system the past two seasons, yet they're now more productive than ever. And you already mentioned Felton, who would not be nearly as lethal in the pick-and-roll/pop without Amar'e.
However, the greatest sign of Amar'e's impact on these players is not their stats, but the Knicks' winning. David Lee put up similar numbers to Amar'e (actually topping him in rebounds and FG percentage) last season, but it didn't lead to wins because he wasn't as dynamic or as physically imposing as Amar'e. Teams have to game-plan for Amar'e, which opens things up for his teammates. He's also been better than ever defensively, averaging a career-best 2.2 blocks, and while the Knicks aren't very strong statistically on that end, their defensive energy and effort has picked up tremendously. Credit their leader, Stoudemire, for setting the tone and getting them to follow him.
RB: I put Amar'e in the conversation for all those reasons -- they're just not enough to put him at the head of the pack. Not with what Rose is doing. As impressive as his numbers might be -- top scoring and shotblocking point guard in the league and top 10 in just about every other category -- they don't do justice to the floor leader he has been for a team that had one of the toughest early schedules.
The Bulls have not missed a beat despite Carlos Boozer being out the first month of the season and Joakim Noah for the past two weeks. Break this Chicago team down and, even with the offseason additions, it's not oozing talent. But the Bulls are at the top of their division and one of the best in the league, largely because Rose is impossible to keep out of the paint. He is their go-to guy, their set-up guy and, at the end of games, their defensive stopper.
CB: I'm a big Rose fan and think he's having a terrific year. But when choosing among MVP candidates you have to nitpick, so here's why I don't think Rose is worthy of the MVP award:
First, you've greatly underestimated his surrounding talent. Noah has played in 24 of the Bulls' 30 games, so he's been there most of the year. Boozer (14 games) returned before Noah left, so Rose has had an All-Star-caliber big man with him all season. And Luol Deng is a very good third (fourth when Bulls are healthy) option. He's averaging at least 17 points a game for the fourth time in five seasons.
RB: How convenient that you've anointed Noah an All-Star, even though he's never been one, and made Boozer one again, even though he's missed most of this season and hasn't been one in two years. Deng is having one of his best seasons, but he's not even a starter on more than half the teams in the league. Their crying need for a 2-guard has been well documented, which is one more reason Rose's FGAs are a reflection of a guy doing what it takes to win rather than someone padding his stats at the team's expense. So, at best, Rose has had one quasi-All-Star at his side and yet the Bulls lead their division and are on pace to win 50-plus games.
CB: Even if you downplay how good Boozer, Noah and Deng are, there's no question that Rose has more talent alongside him than Stoudemire does. Yet the Knicks are 2-0 against the Bulls this season.
But even if you doubt the talent around him, Rose is shooting the ball too much. No other point guard in the league comes close to shooting as much as Rose; no other PG takes as many as 16 shots a game. In fact, the only player in the league taking a higher percentage of his team's shots is Kevin Durant (24.8 percent), and Rose is right behind him (24.7 percent). Ultimately, it's not a good thing to have your point guard taking a quarter of your team's shots, especially when he's hitting just 45 percent of them, when he's only getting to the foul line five times a game, and when there are other capable scorers around him.
RB: If Rose pounded the ball or had a teammate who could get his own shot or had poor shot selection, those numbers might mean something. The fact is his teammates have the utmost respect for him because he doesn't have a selfish bone in his body and yet never shirks the responsibility of taking the big shot. They don't begrudge him a single field goal attempt because, more often than not, he's taking one to bail them out with a short shot clock. Rose has taken fewer shots in games and the Bulls have paid for it -- in losses. The fact that he shoots as much as he does and still rebounds and dishes as much as he does only reflects how integral he is to their winning record.
LeBron James, in his third year, averaged 23 shots a game for a team that took 78; Rose is averaging 20 for a team that takes 82 and has more assists and a better A/TO ratio. Funny, but I didn't hear anything about James being disqualified from MVP contention that season -- he finished second -- for being a gunner or selfish. I've also heard criticism that Rose doesn't get to the line enough, either, yet his five free throws a game are more than Nash had when he was the 2006 MVP, and more than Chris Paul or Tony Parker are averaging now.
CB: If you don't understand the difference between a small forward (or shooting guard, power forward or center) taking 25 percent of the team's shots and a point guard doing that, then we can just stop the discussion now. Part of a PG's job description is to spread the wealth. Not true, certainly not to the same degree, for players at the other positions. No one's calling Rose selfish, and I'm certainly not saying his teammates resent him. All I'm saying is that, in the long run, it's not good for a club to have its PG shooting 25 percent of its shots. And when it comes to MVP voting, those little things matter.
You said the Bulls suffer when Rose shoots less, yet in the nine games he's shot the most (between 24 to 33 attempts), the Bulls are 4-5, including a loss to the Los Angeles Clippers. You speak as if he's playing with a collection of offensive clowns, yet the one game he missed, the Bulls came within a basket of beating Carmelo Anthony and the Denver Nuggets in Denver (Nov. 26). Deng seemed to do a fine job scoring, going 9 for 17 to score 24, and Noah scored 17 (5 for 11) while backup PG C.J. Watson was Rose-like, scoring 33 on 11-of-22 shooting.
RB: So now we're hung up on traditional definitions for positions to downgrade what Rose does. By that logic, Amar'e doesn't deserve consideration, because he's a sub-par rebounder and defender for his position -- whether you call him a PF or a C. But that's the thing: If there's anything that has become meaningless in the NBA, it's positional tags. It's the how, not the what, that matters to me.
Rose is so willing to spread the wealth, he doesn't hold onto the ball until it earns him either a shot or a dime, yet he's still averaging more than eight assists a night. Truth is, he could be averaging half that and not be the least bit selfish. I'm not worried about what his numbers are as much as how he gets them and the results they produce. Rose makes more plays -- game-winning plays -- than Amar'e, or any other MVP candidate I listed.
CB: You can try to muddy positions all you like but the PG spot is distinct. Period. And 25 percent of your team's shots is a lot for a PG. Oh, and Rose is also ranked 26th among the league's 30 starting PGs in assist-to-turnover ratio (2.27). Not a good look. None of this is to say he's not a great player; he's just not the MVP.
RB: Rose does turn the ball over more than he should, but the starting PG comparison is a canard: All kinds of guys listed as the starting PG (Beno Udrih, Derek Fisher, Mike Bibby) aren't the primary playmakers, and the guys below him include a veritable who's who of respected PGs (Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Brandon Jennings, Darren Collison and Stephen Curry). Speaking of A/TO, Amar'e's is atrocious: two TOs for every dime.
CB: I'm wondering if you've seen Amar'e play this season. You rave about Rose making game-winning plays and imply that Amar'e doesn't. Yet, Amar'e leads the NBA in fourth-quarter scoring, averaging 7.0 points during the final period. Rose? He's not in the top 10. Amar'e also leads the league in points in the paint (14.6 ppg). He scored 30 or more points in nine straight games, all but one of them wins. He's dominating in the paint and also hitting the midrange J consistently. There's your MVP. Case closed.
RB: What a shock -- the leading scorer on the highest scoring team in the league (and the third-worst scoring defense) leads the league in fourth-quarter points. And that's supposed to tell me he's more clutch than Rose? How about you give me an example that tops this: In the first dozen games alone, Rose single-handedly won three games in which the Bulls trailed in the final 20 seconds. It's safe to say he's done that at least three more times since. That, to me, is clutch, not some average over the final 12 minutes by a guy and a team all too happy to trade baskets.
I don't care what letters are next to Rose's name in the starting lineup: The Bulls, without their second-best player for most of the season and their third-best player for the past two weeks, have played the fourth-toughest schedule in the East and have the third-most wins. Only Boston has done better. New York? Easiest schedule in the East, sixth-best record. Rose has done more with less against a tougher slate than anyone -- and, that, to me, defines an MVP.
Chris Broussard and Ric Bucher are senior writers for ESPN The Magazine.
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in The Association.
Question: Who is the early-season MVP?
BUCHER: There have been several teams with superstars to thank for their surprisingly good starts this season, making for a rather interesting MVP race after the first trimester. Deron Williams, Dirk Nowitzki, Amar'e Stoudemire, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard all have had terrific starts for winning teams. I'm not sure how my top five would shake out, but I don't have any doubts about who is at the top of my ballot at this point: Derrick Rose of the Chicago Bulls.
BROUSSARD: I don't think there's a clear-cut MVP at this point of the season, but if I had to pick right now I'd go with Amar'e Stoudemire. A guy that probably no other team would have signed to the five-year, $100 million contract the New York Knicks gave him last summer has been nothing short of terrific, both on and off the court. He's playing the best ball of his career and leading a resurgence of one of the NBA's historic franchises.
RB: Amar'e has been far better without Steve Nash than I expected, in large part because his midrange jumper has been automatic all season. And a lot of guys, for whatever reason, play worse, at least initially, after signing a big contract. But -- and you knew one was coming -- when I watch the Knicks play, I don't see Amar'e elevating everyone else's game, which is what I think of when it comes to MVP. Amar'e draws attention, for sure, but New York doesn't run its offense through him to set up other guys and teams rarely double-team him. He's just the best of a crew taking advantage of Mike D'Antoni's up-and-down system. Wilson Chandler, Landry Fields, Danilo Gallinari and Raymond Felton are all making significant contributions, but I'm not sure I'd credit Amar'e for what they're doing -- outside of Felton -- or even say this is the best I've seen from him. He's just playing more minutes and has had a bigger role against one of the league's softest opening schedules.
CB: That's where you're wrong, my friend. Sure, Amar'e isn't dropping dimes and running the offense out of the post -- though he is averaging a career-high 2.4 assists. But his mere presence has made all the Knicks better. Chandler and Gallinari have been in D'Antoni's system the past two seasons, yet they're now more productive than ever. And you already mentioned Felton, who would not be nearly as lethal in the pick-and-roll/pop without Amar'e.
However, the greatest sign of Amar'e's impact on these players is not their stats, but the Knicks' winning. David Lee put up similar numbers to Amar'e (actually topping him in rebounds and FG percentage) last season, but it didn't lead to wins because he wasn't as dynamic or as physically imposing as Amar'e. Teams have to game-plan for Amar'e, which opens things up for his teammates. He's also been better than ever defensively, averaging a career-best 2.2 blocks, and while the Knicks aren't very strong statistically on that end, their defensive energy and effort has picked up tremendously. Credit their leader, Stoudemire, for setting the tone and getting them to follow him.
RB: I put Amar'e in the conversation for all those reasons -- they're just not enough to put him at the head of the pack. Not with what Rose is doing. As impressive as his numbers might be -- top scoring and shotblocking point guard in the league and top 10 in just about every other category -- they don't do justice to the floor leader he has been for a team that had one of the toughest early schedules.
The Bulls have not missed a beat despite Carlos Boozer being out the first month of the season and Joakim Noah for the past two weeks. Break this Chicago team down and, even with the offseason additions, it's not oozing talent. But the Bulls are at the top of their division and one of the best in the league, largely because Rose is impossible to keep out of the paint. He is their go-to guy, their set-up guy and, at the end of games, their defensive stopper.
CB: I'm a big Rose fan and think he's having a terrific year. But when choosing among MVP candidates you have to nitpick, so here's why I don't think Rose is worthy of the MVP award:
First, you've greatly underestimated his surrounding talent. Noah has played in 24 of the Bulls' 30 games, so he's been there most of the year. Boozer (14 games) returned before Noah left, so Rose has had an All-Star-caliber big man with him all season. And Luol Deng is a very good third (fourth when Bulls are healthy) option. He's averaging at least 17 points a game for the fourth time in five seasons.
RB: How convenient that you've anointed Noah an All-Star, even though he's never been one, and made Boozer one again, even though he's missed most of this season and hasn't been one in two years. Deng is having one of his best seasons, but he's not even a starter on more than half the teams in the league. Their crying need for a 2-guard has been well documented, which is one more reason Rose's FGAs are a reflection of a guy doing what it takes to win rather than someone padding his stats at the team's expense. So, at best, Rose has had one quasi-All-Star at his side and yet the Bulls lead their division and are on pace to win 50-plus games.
CB: Even if you downplay how good Boozer, Noah and Deng are, there's no question that Rose has more talent alongside him than Stoudemire does. Yet the Knicks are 2-0 against the Bulls this season.
But even if you doubt the talent around him, Rose is shooting the ball too much. No other point guard in the league comes close to shooting as much as Rose; no other PG takes as many as 16 shots a game. In fact, the only player in the league taking a higher percentage of his team's shots is Kevin Durant (24.8 percent), and Rose is right behind him (24.7 percent). Ultimately, it's not a good thing to have your point guard taking a quarter of your team's shots, especially when he's hitting just 45 percent of them, when he's only getting to the foul line five times a game, and when there are other capable scorers around him.
RB: If Rose pounded the ball or had a teammate who could get his own shot or had poor shot selection, those numbers might mean something. The fact is his teammates have the utmost respect for him because he doesn't have a selfish bone in his body and yet never shirks the responsibility of taking the big shot. They don't begrudge him a single field goal attempt because, more often than not, he's taking one to bail them out with a short shot clock. Rose has taken fewer shots in games and the Bulls have paid for it -- in losses. The fact that he shoots as much as he does and still rebounds and dishes as much as he does only reflects how integral he is to their winning record.
LeBron James, in his third year, averaged 23 shots a game for a team that took 78; Rose is averaging 20 for a team that takes 82 and has more assists and a better A/TO ratio. Funny, but I didn't hear anything about James being disqualified from MVP contention that season -- he finished second -- for being a gunner or selfish. I've also heard criticism that Rose doesn't get to the line enough, either, yet his five free throws a game are more than Nash had when he was the 2006 MVP, and more than Chris Paul or Tony Parker are averaging now.
CB: If you don't understand the difference between a small forward (or shooting guard, power forward or center) taking 25 percent of the team's shots and a point guard doing that, then we can just stop the discussion now. Part of a PG's job description is to spread the wealth. Not true, certainly not to the same degree, for players at the other positions. No one's calling Rose selfish, and I'm certainly not saying his teammates resent him. All I'm saying is that, in the long run, it's not good for a club to have its PG shooting 25 percent of its shots. And when it comes to MVP voting, those little things matter.
You said the Bulls suffer when Rose shoots less, yet in the nine games he's shot the most (between 24 to 33 attempts), the Bulls are 4-5, including a loss to the Los Angeles Clippers. You speak as if he's playing with a collection of offensive clowns, yet the one game he missed, the Bulls came within a basket of beating Carmelo Anthony and the Denver Nuggets in Denver (Nov. 26). Deng seemed to do a fine job scoring, going 9 for 17 to score 24, and Noah scored 17 (5 for 11) while backup PG C.J. Watson was Rose-like, scoring 33 on 11-of-22 shooting.
RB: So now we're hung up on traditional definitions for positions to downgrade what Rose does. By that logic, Amar'e doesn't deserve consideration, because he's a sub-par rebounder and defender for his position -- whether you call him a PF or a C. But that's the thing: If there's anything that has become meaningless in the NBA, it's positional tags. It's the how, not the what, that matters to me.
Rose is so willing to spread the wealth, he doesn't hold onto the ball until it earns him either a shot or a dime, yet he's still averaging more than eight assists a night. Truth is, he could be averaging half that and not be the least bit selfish. I'm not worried about what his numbers are as much as how he gets them and the results they produce. Rose makes more plays -- game-winning plays -- than Amar'e, or any other MVP candidate I listed.
CB: You can try to muddy positions all you like but the PG spot is distinct. Period. And 25 percent of your team's shots is a lot for a PG. Oh, and Rose is also ranked 26th among the league's 30 starting PGs in assist-to-turnover ratio (2.27). Not a good look. None of this is to say he's not a great player; he's just not the MVP.
RB: Rose does turn the ball over more than he should, but the starting PG comparison is a canard: All kinds of guys listed as the starting PG (Beno Udrih, Derek Fisher, Mike Bibby) aren't the primary playmakers, and the guys below him include a veritable who's who of respected PGs (Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Brandon Jennings, Darren Collison and Stephen Curry). Speaking of A/TO, Amar'e's is atrocious: two TOs for every dime.
CB: I'm wondering if you've seen Amar'e play this season. You rave about Rose making game-winning plays and imply that Amar'e doesn't. Yet, Amar'e leads the NBA in fourth-quarter scoring, averaging 7.0 points during the final period. Rose? He's not in the top 10. Amar'e also leads the league in points in the paint (14.6 ppg). He scored 30 or more points in nine straight games, all but one of them wins. He's dominating in the paint and also hitting the midrange J consistently. There's your MVP. Case closed.
RB: What a shock -- the leading scorer on the highest scoring team in the league (and the third-worst scoring defense) leads the league in fourth-quarter points. And that's supposed to tell me he's more clutch than Rose? How about you give me an example that tops this: In the first dozen games alone, Rose single-handedly won three games in which the Bulls trailed in the final 20 seconds. It's safe to say he's done that at least three more times since. That, to me, is clutch, not some average over the final 12 minutes by a guy and a team all too happy to trade baskets.
I don't care what letters are next to Rose's name in the starting lineup: The Bulls, without their second-best player for most of the season and their third-best player for the past two weeks, have played the fourth-toughest schedule in the East and have the third-most wins. Only Boston has done better. New York? Easiest schedule in the East, sixth-best record. Rose has done more with less against a tougher slate than anyone -- and, that, to me, defines an MVP.
Chris Broussard and Ric Bucher are senior writers for ESPN The Magazine.
Comment