Plus-Minus is a joke and ESPN needs to stop feeding lies

[Loco]

Some goofball on ESPN posted this link saying it was a great breakdown of the Rose v Lebron for MVP.

Where Would They Be Without Him? Blog Archive

"Oddly enough, what's not helping Rose's MVP case is his plus-minus numbers. And implicitly, this is where most Rose supporters state their case. When his advocates ask, 'Where would the Bulls be without Rose?' the question is meant to be a rhetorical one. The obvious implication is that a Rose-less Bulls squad would instantly become a basement dweller. But rather than blindly accept it, we can actually see how the Bulls have managed without him on the court. And how have they fared with Rose benched? By beating opponents by 51 points on the season, or an average of 4.9 points every 100 possessions. Why? Whether Rose is in the game or not, [Tom] Thibodeau’s game-changing defense remains."

John Hollinger and his crew of "statistical analysis" nerds on ESPN need to stop feeding the public this kind of junk.

Basically if you goto the Link it shows retarded Plus-Minus numbers stating that the Bulls would be ONLY 1 game worse without him and similar numbers apply to Kobe, Tony Parker, Duncan and Westbrook.

[FirstTimer]

.................Yeah I'm sure the Bulls would only be one game worse with CJ Watson at the point.

[Kuzzy Powers]

+/- is the stupidest stat in basketball. Whoever decided to start keeping track of it is a retard.

[FedEx227]

Everyone knows I'm a stat nerd but I can't stand +/- either. I'm not a big SABR guy in basketball just because there's so many more factors than there is in baseball.

[Senser81]

+/- is the stupidest stat in basketball. Whoever decided to start keeping track of it is a retard.

Sounds like Lefty34...

[BrntO4Life]

MEDIA AND LIES, BRO! WINNING, BUH-BYE!

[FedEx227]

To be fair (not typical behavior in VSN statistical discussions), Hollinger and his "crew of nerds" don't use +/-. Hollinger is PER (Player Efficient Rating) and Game Score mostly. +/- is already losing a ton of steam among APBRmetricans as an individual stat because of it's team-dependent deficiencies. I only really look at it to see best lineups, but to try to extrapolate it on an individual level seems to generate some pretty bad results.

[Senser81]

To be fair (not typical behavior in VSN statistical discussions), Hollinger and his "crew of nerds" don't use +/-. Hollinger is PER (Player Efficient Rating) and Game Score mostly. +/- is already losing a ton of steam among APBRmetricans as an individual stat because of it's team-dependent deficiencies. I only really look at it to see best lineups, but to try to extrapolate it on an individual level seems to generate some pretty bad results.

But I think even at the most basic level, this type of +/- or PER is somewhat flawed, because its going to penalize players that play a ton of minutes. Rose is almost always on the floor for the Bulls (I believe he is #12 in the NBA in minutes), so it would be impossible for him personally to have a significantly higher +/- rating than his teammates because he is always on the floor. In terms of efficiency, its much easier to appear "more efficient" with less minutes, because you have less opportunity to revert to the norm. For instance, its easier for a WR to average 20 YPC on 15 receptions than it is 85 receptions.

[FedEx227]

I absolutely agree.... I can't stand Plus/Minus. It punishes guys with a ton of minutes and props up mediocre guys who plays with starters. Delonte West use to have legendary high Plus/Minus numbers when he was with Cleveland.

[ralaw]

Whether Rose is in the game or not, [Tom] Thibodeau’s game-changing defense remains.

Somewhere Rajon Rondo (the poster) is smiling ear to ear.

[Kuzzy Powers]

I absolutely agree.... I can't stand Plus/Minus. It punishes guys with a ton of minutes and props up mediocre guys who plays with starters. Delonte West use to have legendary high Plus/Minus numbers when he was with Cleveland.

Delonte West was an abysmal -5 the other night in a victory over the Clippers. Ask Yawkey Way bout that..

[FirstTimer]

But I think even at the most basic level, this type of +/- or PER is somewhat flawed, because its going to penalize players that play a ton of minutes. Rose is almost always on the floor for the Bulls (I believe he is #12 in the NBA in minutes), so it would be impossible for him personally to have a significantly higher +/- rating than his teammates because he is always on the floor. In terms of efficiency, its much easier to appear "more efficient" with less minutes, because you have less opportunity to revert to the norm. For instance, its easier for a WR to average 20 YPC on 15 receptions than it is 85 receptions.

Which is also part of the reason I dislike Per36.