Rondo the most overrated player in the league today?

[Pitty]

Wouldn't you expect a player to get at least one more scoring opp a game if he's playing 5 extra minutes a game and a 20 point scorer is removed from the lineup?

[FedEx227]

Brooks is putting the Thunder in great places but those are just a few of the plays that show the impact Westbrook's offense has on OKC's offense. The particular play in question (which the Thunder run quite often, just saw it a few more times last week) all but forces the defense to bring 4 defenders over to Westbrook which allows for a kickout or an easy at the rim shot for Ibaka.

No Westbrook isn't going to throw an assist from the top of the key to a driving guy through someones legs but the little movements he does are what make him so valuable. He's an inefficient direct scorer (something he absolutely needs to work on) but to ignore or underrated the impact he makes on OKC's offense is just unfair.

[Pitty]

Brooks is putting the Thunder in great places but those are just a few of the plays that show the impact Westbrook's offense has on OKC's offense. The particular play in question (which the Thunder run quite often, just saw it a few more times last week) all but forces the defense to bring 4 defenders over to Westbrook which allows for a kickout or an easy at the rim shot for Ibaka.

No Westbrook isn't going to throw an assist from the top of the key to a driving guy through someones legs but the little movements he does are what make him so valuable. He's an inefficient direct scorer (something he absolutely needs to work on) but to ignore or underrated the impact he makes on OKC's offense is just unfair.

I understand this, but again, more minutes and less scoring options don't lead to more opportunities?

[FedEx227]

Wouldn't you expect a player to get at least one more scoring opp a game if he's playing 5 extra minutes a game and a 20 point scorer is removed from the lineup?

He's getting 3 more shots per game than he was when Harden was in there. 2 of those are 18-23 footers and the other 1 is a play at the rim. I was just highlighting the synergy of Westbrook suddenly having more assists leading to buckets at the rim and Ibaka's rise as well. Take it however you want.

You can say a 22 point per game guy that has elite speed and driving ability doesn't have an impact on his big men getting more open opportunities at the rim due to a collapsing defense, but that's your prerogative.

[FedEx227]

I understand this, but again, more minutes and less scoring options don't lead to more opportunities?

Of course they do, but why make the argument that linear? We're big boys and we have tools to go deeper than that.

Look at where their shots are coming from and look at where the assists are coming from. It's impossible to argue that Westbrook's driving ability is giving his teammates more opportunities around the rim (the biggest beneficiary being Ibaka)

[Pitty]

He's getting 3 more shots per game than he was when Harden was in there. 2 of those are 18-23 footers and the other 1 is a play at the rim. I was just highlighting the synergy of Westbrook suddenly having more assists leading to buckets at the rim and Ibaka's rise as well. Take it however you want.

You can say a 22 point per game guy that has elite speed and driving ability doesn't have an impact on his big men getting more open opportunities at the rim due to a collapsing defense, but that's your prerogative.

This isn't the argument at all, I never denied Westbrook's athleticism being his meal ticket.

[FedEx227]

Then I'm trying to fathom how people are still taking Rondo over Westbrook when Westbrook is proving himself to be a more than capable passer with each passing year (IN ADDITION to score 20+ points per game). I understand why Rondo is fun to watch and people enjoy him but I just can't grasp how someone building a team would want a guy who's only value is derived from others versus a guy who is dramatically more valuable than Rondo (see: any value stat).

[ralaw]

Then I'm trying to fathom how people are still taking Rondo over Westbrook when Westbrook is proving himself to be a more than capable passer with each passing year (IN ADDITION to score 20+ points per game). I understand why Rondo is fun to watch and people enjoy him but I just can't grasp how someone building a team would want a guy who's only value is derived from others versus a guy who is dramatically more valuable than Rondo (see: any value stat).

For me it is about preference. Westbrook is a good player, but IMO he shoots too much and is inefficient. You can post all of these deep stats all you want, but at the end of the day he is still inefficient. Granted, in the OKC offense he is counted on to be a scorer, but he should watch some tape of Tony Parker who is far less athletic and talented, but is much pore efficient. Parker is also better around the rim.

I am not too big of a fan of inefficient scoring small guards who are scorers.

[Rudi]

I guess I'm in the minority but I love Rondo. I would take him over Westbrook.

[Glenbino]

As the Celtics are currently constructed I think they would be better off with Westbrook.. but there's no way they're as successful as they've been over the past 5 years with Westbrook at point.

Rondo is just getting dinged now because the guys around him turned to shit and he's not a confident enough shooter to elevate his game in that area.

His defense is pretty overrated IMO as evidenced by the way Kyrie Irving tore him up just before the injury. He has nice steal numbers but he gambles a lot and has benefitted greatly from having KG behind him in the paint.

[Villain]

ITT: VSN debates Russell Westbrook in a thread about Rajon Rondo.

[Len B]

@ this entire thread spawning because of a 4-0 record including wins over Sacramento, Orlando and the Clippers who suck dick without Paul. I guess Sullinger is overrated too, Celtics are undefeated without him so might as well cut him.

Surely it has nothing to do with Jeff Green, Courtney Lee, Barbosa and Terry having a very strong stretch. The Celtics are the deepest team in the NBA, if their role players are on they are going to win.

I said it before and I said it again, if you minimalize point guards and think 'just passing' is all he does and that he doesn't make a team better you should stick to your three point shots and slam dunks mindset and enjoy the NBA from a casual point of view.

[FedEx227]

@ this entire thread spawning because of a 4-0 record including wins over Sacramento, Orlando and the Clippers who suck dick without Paul. I guess Sullinger is overrated too, Celtics are undefeated without him so might as well cut him.

Surely it has nothing to do with Jeff Green, Courtney Lee, Barbosa and Terry having a very strong stretch. The Celtics are the deepest team in the NBA, if their role players are on they are going to win.

I said it before and I said it again, if you minimalize point guards and think 'just passing' is all he does and that he doesn't make a team better you should stick to your three point shots and slam dunks mindset and enjoy the NBA from a casual point of view.

But you're at the same time minimizing the impact of a PG that can score. You can have a preference either way, I don't think one makes you a bad NBA fan or a good NBA fan. I mean, hardcore NBA fans can tell you the merits of both, which I think I've done numerous times. As I've said time and time again, and you can disagree if you want, I don't like PG's who only value is derived from other players. I love my Tony Parker's, guys who look to score but use their driving and shooting ability to create space (similar to how that bastard Russell Westbrook does it).

Rondo is fine, this whole vitriol over the Rondo is overrated or Rondo is not in the top 5 is a little strong. I've gone out of my way to say he's probably the 6-8th best PG in the league, which, okay you can disagree, but I think is more than reasonable. PG is stupid deep right now with a lot of MVP candidates or soon-to-be-MVPs. Rondo, no matter how much you love his passing or how much he helps other guys get open looks, is not in that conversation or category.

Not a knock against him, it's just not going to happen until he develops an outside shot like so many of his contemporaries have.

The part about making his team better is a bit of a blanket statement too. Any great player is going to make the players around him better and the same can easily be said for any of the other five point guards I'd very easily put ahead of Rondo. I just think that's a very lazy narrative that's true for most really good players in basketball.

So, no, I'm not going to watch the NBA from a casual standpoint because I don't think Rajon Rondo is a top 5 player and I believe (given his amount of press and Bill Simmons cheerleading) he is overrated. He's still a really, really good player and in the top class of PGs in the league. Just not THE TOP TOP class or the elite.

[Len B]

We already had our convo in chat, the post was more directed at Loco.

At the end of the day, two points are two points whether you make a layup, a shot or your teammate makes a shot. For years I've watched Rondo push the tempo on a fast break and find a trailer or someone across the court for a wide open three point shot. You can say he relies on his teammates to be good, I can say this is the NBA and I know that most NBA wing men if given a wide open pass in their comfort spot can hit the open shot.

Replace Ray Allen with another 30-40 players and Rondo is still getting his numbers, because it's not hard to find NBA players who can hit open shots. What is hard, is finding players who can get players the ball at the right time.

I think it is incorrect to say Rondo gets his value from others based on above. Rondo raises the value of many players, and as long as you give him 1 of 100 capable NBA wing men his value won't decrease.

The guy in his first post said Rondo is obsessed with assists, and turns down easy layups. I don't get how that means Rondo is a worse player. If he's getting easy layup opportunities, two things are occuring here:

1) He's breaking down the defense and providing a high scoring % opportunity

2) He's still creating 2 points either way. Let's say Rondo always finished instead of passing away easy layups, all that'd mean is his PPG would rise and his assists would shrink (let's say 15 PPG and 9 assists instead of 12 PPG and 11.5 assists). Either way it's still two points, and doesn't hurt or expand your value as the outcome is the same.

He's not overrated. No one considers him an MVP, and he's right around the cusp of elite PG's and is probably 5th best in the NBA. That's where he should be.