Whitlock tears up Iverson

[Herm]

Huh? Didn't Webber come in in 04, and Coleman went to Detroit in 04? and Coleman scored 15 PPG one season for Philly and 10 PPG for him another season. Obviously you would have to bring up the #1 overall draft pick stat because to bring up his actual season numbers it would have much less of an impact. In 03 Coleman only even played 30 games, what a great fucking help that is.

EDIT: the Sixers had 3 #1 overall draft picks: Iverson, Coleman, and Glenn Robinson. Webber came in after. And those three don't really make up an excellent team.

Good catch, it was Big Dog and his 16ppg on that 03-04 team with Coleman and AI.

Webber averaged 15ppg on the 04-05 team with AI.

[bucky]

I disagree witha major argument of Whitlocks though concerning AI's Philly days. They brought him in to be a scorer. They wanted him to pour in points. To hold that against him and compare him to Thomas, who was a true point guard and was supposed to run the team and distribute to other legit NBA guys is off base.

He then brings up how AI never developed a McHale Pippen, etc. Well who did Philly ever give him? I agree with Iverson being selfish now I just disagree with Whitlock's analysis of Iverson's Philly days.

I'm going to try and look up a list of players AI had in Philly. I could be wrong, but I remember him running good coaches and some good players out of town because of his attitude and playing style. I don't remember specific names off the top of my head, so I could be wrong about this.

[bucky]

2) As much as I hated Iverson, he put in 110% effort every time on the court. I remember when he single-handedly led the East All-Stars to a win over the West All-Stars. He did it by working his butt off during an All-Star game. Iverson was one of the smallest players in the NBA, and he took a beating every game, scoring most of his points on drives to the basket.

Oh, I think he gave good effort during games. Were he lacked was trying to make his team and teammates better. He was definitely a very selfish player and I think that hurt his teams and his career. He's the last guy I would pick as a "team leader" in the locker room or during practice. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, are we talking about PRACTICE.

[bucky]

[/B]


Good catch, it was Big Dog and his 16ppg on that 03-04 team with Coleman and AI.

Webber averaged 15ppg on the 04-05 team with AI.

AI didn't seem to be able to exist with other scorers. Watching "Big Dog" in Milwaukee, scoring was the ONLY thing he COULD do. He was useless on defense, and useless as a passer. I think it's AI's style of play that lessened the effectiveness of his team-mates.

Sidney Moncrief was a 20 point per game scorer. For part of his career he actually played point guard. And yet, Moncrief did make the guys around him better. He practiced as hard as he played the game. Was unselfish, and could coexist with other very good BB-ball players.

Moncrief was not as physically talented as AI, but I would take Sydney way before taking a guy like AI.

[ralaw]

AI never really played with anyone of any real significance, but IIRC the only player that he had issues with was Stackhouse. The rumors were that AI and Stackhouse didn’t get along and actually got into an altercation in practice causing the team to make a decision on AI or Stackhouse. AI has never really “ran” anyone out of Philly. The issue was that the players the team drafted t o surround Iverson where too young and not ready at the time to be major contributors (see Larry Hughes and Tim Thomas). The front office during AI’s time was pretty bad and didn’t know how to surround AI with players. The players around AI were pretty bad, as for the most part the top picks there before him (Shawn Bradley, Sharon Wright) where busts and the best player Stackhouse didn’t get along with Iverson (both high scoring but high volume/low efficient scorers). After AI the team became respectable, but the drafting was still poor and the team acquired veterans who were past their prime.

As I mentioned before I am not a fan of AI's playing style, but have people seen the rosters he's been on? If it wasn't for a really weak eastern conference that NBA Finals team had no business being there.

[FirstTimer]

AI never really played with anyone of any real significance, but IIRC the only player that he had issues with was Stackhouse. The rumors were that AI and Stackhouse didn’t get along and actually got into an altercation in practice causing the team to make a decision on AI or Stackhouse. AI has never really “ran” anyone out of Philly. The issue was that the players the team drafted t o surround Iverson where too young and not ready at the time to be major contributors (see Larry Hughes and Tim Thomas). The front office during AI’s time was pretty bad and didn’t know how to surround AI with players. The players around AI were pretty bad, as for the most part the top picks there before him (Shawn Bradley, Sharon Wright) where busts and the best player Stackhouse didn’t get along with Iverson (both high scoring but high volume/low efficient scorers). After AI the team became respectable, but the drafting was still poor and the team acquired veterans who were past their prime.

As I mentioned before I am not a fan of AI's playing style, but have people seen the rosters he's been on? If it wasn't for a really weak eastern conference that NBA Finals team had no business being there.

Excellent post concerning AI and Stackhouse. Sure AI was a pain in the ass but Stackhouse in his younger days didn't exactly have the best rep. I still remember him running his mouth about beating MJ 1 on 1 at UNC just before Jordans first comeback as if he was saying J was past his prime or Stack was better and could handle him.

MJ went out and dropped 30+ on him consistantly after that.

AI and Stack were just bad personalities/playing styles to co-exist with. Part of the blame falls on each of them but blame also has to go to the 76ers front office. You already had Stack, a scorer, and you bring in AI a year later who is a shoot first PG and put him in the same backcourt as Stack and expect things to run smoothly?

The 76ers never made any real attempts to bring in guys to surrund AI and compliment him. They made some moves to bring in "names" who were well past their prime but that really didn't mean much.

[bucky]

You already had Stack, a scorer, and you bring in AI a year later who is a shoot first PG and put him in the same backcourt as Stack and expect things to run smoothly?

On one hand you blame the FO for Philly's failure and somewhat excuse AI because of his style of play. So isn't it AI's selfish, me first, high volume, low efficient, style of play that doesn't allow him to coexist with other good players?

The 76ers never made any real attempts to bring in guys to surrund AI and compliment him.

So what kind of player compliments a selfish, me first, high volume, low efficient, point guard?

[FirstTimer]

On one hand you blame the FO for Philly's failure and somewhat excuse AI because of his style of play. So isn't it AI's selfish, me first, high volume, low efficient, style of play that doesn't allow him to coexist with other good players?

Your timeline is reversed. Stack was in Philly BEFORE AI got there. It's not as though AI was there and bitter because they brought in Stack to steal his thunder. If anything it was the other way around.m Stack was there. Was "the man" then AI was drafted and was brought in to be a scorer as well. Philly had no idea how to make a cohesive team unless it was AI and 11 bums.

So what kind of player compliments a selfish, me first, high volume, low efficient, point guard?

If Ai was so me first he would have requested a trade out of Philly long before it went south, You don't think AI knew the players around him most of his seasons were trash? Come on now.

[bucky]

Your timeline is reversed.

My time line isn't reversed. I know Stack was in Philly before AI. It's my opinion that AI's style of play made it difficult to have both of them coexist on the same team. AI's style of play takes his team mates out of their games (and this is as a point guard).

Philly had no idea how to make a cohesive team unless it was AI and 11 bums.

Which is my point. AI's style of play makes it difficult to create a cohesive team, unless AI is surrounded by 11 bums. Not what I want in my superstar.

If Ai was so me first he would have requested a trade out of Philly long before it went south, You don't think AI knew the players around him most of his seasons were trash? Come on now.

Again, that's the point. AI's style of play is selfish. It is a me first style. Being surrounded by a trash is right up his alley. That ensures that he IS the center of the team. Why would he ask to be traded from that. It's exactly what he wants. It's ideal for him.

[FirstTimer]

My time line isn't reversed. I know Stack was in Philly before AI. It's my opinion that AI's style of play made it difficult to have both of them coexist on the same team.

Stackhouses play contributes the same effect. Why do you think Detroit shipped him out and repalced him with Rip Hamilton? Stack and AI have very similar offensive games early in their careers and in many ways a similar attitude. To blame AI alone for Stack being traded by Philly is a big leap. There is plenty of blame to go around to all three spots.

AI's style of play takes his team mates out of their games (and this is as a point guard).

Philly KNEW THIS when they drafted him. AI was a scoring guard in college. What did they think they were getting? Again that's why I point to the ineptness of the 76ers front office. AI averaged 25ppg before he came to the NBA. He was always a shoot first guy and a scorer. Philly HAD to have known this and if they didn't see forseeable issues with Stack and AI playing together in the same backcourt I would question their sanity.

Which is my point. AI's style of play makes it difficult to create a cohesive team, unless AI is surrounded by 11 bums.

We don't know that. AI was on the downside of his career when the 76ers shipped him out. Who knows how he would have responded to actual complimentar players in his prime? Philyl never made a move to bring in true complimentary players for AI. It was either scorers that they tried to make swallow the bitter pill of being #2 now or washed up #1 and #2's who were past their prime and couldn't do anything.

Philly just never cared to find pieces and bring them in. They scraped together some marginal players from around the NBA, threw AI in the mix and hoped to make the playoffs.

Again, that's the point. AI's style of play is selfish. It is a me first style. Being surrounded by a trash is right up his alley. That ensures that he IS the center of the team. Why would he ask to be traded from that. It's exactly what he wants. It's ideal for him.

BS. Iverson always wanted to win. He'd do everything in his power to win. I remember for years people bashing against the GM of Philly for not making any moves and even tension between AI and King because King was content to stand pat with guys like Eric Snow.

[bucky]

Stackhouses play contributes the same effect.

It's easier to be successful with a shooting guard having that kind of playing style then it is with a point guard with the same playing style. It really takes away from the efficiency of a team to have a point guard with that same playing style.

Stack and AI have very similar offensive games early in their careers and in many ways a similar attitude. To blame AI alone for Stack being traded by Philly is a big leap. There is plenty of blame to go around to all three spots.

True. I think Philly's front office was nuts for drafting AI. I agree with ya that they (the front office) share in the blame for Philly's lack of success.

Philly KNEW THIS when they drafted him. AI was a scoring guard in college. What did they think they were getting? Again that's why I point to the ineptness of the 76ers front office.

I agree. Philly was nuts for drafting him.

We don't know that. AI was on the downside of his career when the 76ers shipped him out. Who knows how he would have responded to actual complimentar players in his prime?

AI drove away good coaches too. I really believe Coach Brown left because he knew you can't win in Philly with AI. You can find better Coaches than Coach Brown, but he is one of the best.

BS. Iverson always wanted to win. He'd do everything in his power to win. I remember for years people bashing against the GM of Philly for not making any moves and even tension between AI and King because King was content to stand pat with guys like Eric Snow.

If AI really wanted to win a championship, he wouldn't be forcing team's to change in order to fit his playing style. He would be changing his playing style according to what that team needs from him in order to make the team better. Either he doesn't want to win as badly as you think, or he doesn't know how to.

[FirstTimer]

It's easier to be successful with a shooting guard having that kind of playing style then it is with a point guard with the same playing style. It really takes away from the efficiency of a team to have a point guard with that same playing style.

AI was moved to essentially the SG position when they brought in Eric Snow. And if it's so obvious it's easier to succeed while having a SG playing that style and not a PG why the hell would Philly draft AI when they already have Stackhouse?

True. I think Philly's front office was nuts for drafting AI. I agree with ya that they (the front office) share in the blame for Philly's lack of success.



I agree. Philly was nuts for drafting him.

See above.

AI drove away good coaches too. I really believe Coach Brown left because he knew you can't win in Philly with AI. You can find better Coaches than Coach Brown, but he is one of the best.

Philly almost won with Brown and AI. But Brown als knows you need more than one player to win a title. Philly never ahd that and never really tried to get that.

If AI really wanted to win a championship, he wouldn't be forcing team's to change in order to fit his playing style. He would be changing his playing style according to what that team needs from him in order to make the team better. Either he doesn't want to win as badly as you think, or he doesn't know how to.

Again, i think this is reverese. They brough AI in to be a certain type of player. They knew what they were getting when they drafted him. AI never forced Philly to change any style. Philly bought into AI's style enough to draft him. When you draft a fracnhise guy like AI you say he's teh leader he's the guy he's the answer and build around his style.

[bucky]

FT,

We are gonna agree on some things and disagree on others when it comes to AI, but that's OK. That's what discussions are all about.

There are many players I would take before AI. Players that are not as physically gifted as he is. And I still believe you end up with a better team. From his first year in the league I've had the same opinion of him and I have not seen anything that would change it. In fact, his style of play and his attitude during press conferences have only reinforced my view.

I used the Sidney Moncrief example earlier. Sydney is not in AI's class when talking about Physical Gifts. Yet I would take Moncrief in a heartbeat over AI. We were really fortunate having Moncrief in Milwaukee. He did EVERYTHING well, including sharing the court with teammates.

[dell71]

Nice bringing up Moncrief. I used to enjoy watching him play.

[Senser81]

Who cares about Moncrief. If I were a GM starting a team from scratch, I'd take Paul Mokeski over Allen Iverson...