Mike Martz: Offensive Genius?

[Warner2BruceTD]

2006 Lions: 21st in total offense, 22nd points scored
2007 Lions: 19th in total offense, 16th points scored
2008 49ers: 23rd in total offense, 22nd points scored

Couple that with the fact that his recent offenses perennially lead the League in sacks and turnovers and I just have to say NO.

I really don't get the hype associated with this guy.

Your stats have ZERO context. Try this, taken from another thread:

Numbers next to teams are NFL ranks in points & yards. Martz coached offenses in bold.


1998 Rams - 24, 27 (3 wins)
1999 Rams - 1, 1
(Rams have not had a winning season since Martz left in 2005, many of those years with a roster full of the same players Martz had to work with - Holt, Bruce, Bulger, Jackson, Pace, etc)


2005 Lions - 28, 27 (254 points)
2006 Lions - 21, 22 (7th in NFL in passing, 305 points)
2007 Lions - 16, 19 (346 points, highest ranks over a 10 year period in either category, team goes 7-9, best record since 2001)
2008 Lions - 27, 30 (268 points, 0-16, worst team in NFL history)


2007 49ers - 32, 32 (219 points, one of the worst offenses in modern era football)
2008 49ers - 22, 23 (339 points, a 120 point swing, and possibly his best work yet)
2010 49ers - 31, 23 (arguably the worst offense in the league, Jimmy Raye fired Week 3)

What the Martz offense has always been is an offense that IMMEDIATELY improves the second he touches it, then IMMEDIATELY drops off the earth the second he leaves.

As you can clearly see, Martz inherited total shit everywhere he's been, and IMMEDIATLEY made drastic improvements each time. And everytime those teams let him go, they go directly back into the shitter.

Martz designed the only offense in NFL history to score 500 points three consecutive seasons. No other team has even accomplished that twice. And you cant come back with "well, he had 5 potential HOF players with the Rams...", because look at what he did with Detroit & SF, with AWFUL personel:

-Detroit has been the laughing stock of the NFL for a decade, and they not only had their two best offensive teams in recent memory under Martz, they also had their most successful season in 2007. Martz gets scapegoated by a desperate Rod Marinelli, gets fired, the offense goes into the tank, and the Lions go 0-16. Look at the difference in yards, and more importantly, points, from 2005 to 2007. And this is with a TERRIBLE OL, Jon Kitna, Shaun McDonald, Mike Furrey, and a bunch of bust first round WR's.

-The 2007 49ers, if you recall, had what many people feel is the worst offensive team of the SB era. Just atrocious. 2008 may have been Matz's best work, working with the likes of JT O'Sullivan & Shaun Hill playing QB, and an over the hill Isaac Bruce as the top WR.

Now he goes to Chicago, where again he comes into a situation where the OL is TERRIBLE, they have no viable WR's let alone a true #1 WR, and he has the offense playing at a much higher level than the year before with all of the same lousy parts. Yet here come the critics, blaming Martz dfor the sacks, as if the Bears were protecting the shit out of Cutler at any point last year, either.

So this is now team #3 since the Rams where Martz has taken over a shitball offense, and immediately made them better, and in all three cases, virtually no overhaul of the crappy personel from the year previous. And you don't "get" why he has a great reputation?

I'll debate Martz all day, but you gotta come stronger than out of context stats and the smae old sorry ass cliches.

[for surtain 22]

great post, but it's time to give Shaun Hill some respect. How does this guy not have a starting job somewhere? Id take him on the fins in a second.

[mcstl25]

Your stats have ZERO context. Try this, taken from another thread:




As you can clearly see, Martz inherited total shit everywhere he's been, and IMMEDIATLEY made drastic improvements each time. And everytime those teams let him go, they go directly back into the shitter.

Martz designed the only offense in NFL history to score 500 points three consecutive seasons. No other team has even accomplished that twice. And you cant come back with "well, he had 5 potential HOF players with the Rams...", because look at what he did with Detroit & SF, with AWFUL personel:

-Detroit has been the laughing stock of the NFL for a decade, and they not only had their two best offensive teams in recent memory under Martz, they also had their most successful season in 2007. Martz gets scapegoated by a desperate Rod Marinelli, gets fired, the offense goes into the tank, and the Lions go 0-16. Look at the difference in yards, and more importantly, points, from 2005 to 2007. And this is with a TERRIBLE OL, Jon Kitna, Shaun McDonald, Mike Furrey, and a bunch of bust first round WR's.

-The 2007 49ers, if you recall, had what many people feel is the worst offensive team of the SB era. Just atrocious. 2008 may have been Matz's best work, working with the likes of JT O'Sullivan & Shaun Hill playing QB, and an over the hill Isaac Bruce as the top WR.

Now he goes to Chicago, where again he comes into a situation where the OL is TERRIBLE, they have no viable WR's let alone a true #1 WR, and he has the offense playing at a much higher level than the year before with all of the same lousy parts. Yet here come the critics, blaming Martz dfor the sacks, as if the Bears were protecting the shit out of Cutler at any point last year, either.

So this is now team #3 since the Rams where Martz has taken over a shitball offense, and immediately made them better, and in all three cases, virtually no overhaul of the crappy personel from the year previous. And you don't "get" why he has a great reputation?

I'll debate Martz all day, but you gotta come stronger than out of context stats and the smae old sorry ass cliches.

You talk about improved offensive statistics and points per game all day long, but always leave out turnover, sack, time of possession and points against statistics. Who cares if a team averages 10 more points per game if the opposing team is scoring just as much on average due to the increased turnovers, increased sacks and decreased time of possession?

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Theres only a few guys that I really feel truly know there shit as O or D coaches.
Martz is one of them. I dont agree with his philosophy but theres a reason teams are lining up 4-5 wides and trying to pass every down. I can assure you its not Kevin Gilbride.

In HIS system..called properly you dont have to establish the run early. Much like Walsh WCO offense so long as your getting the ball into the RB hands on a consistent basis the running game will take care of itself. Love what hes doing with Forte.

I do however feel long term it suits Martz to be checked by a HC and runs to be called when Martz gets too giddy. Otherwise hes just a slimmer andy reid.

[Warner2BruceTD]

You talk about improved offensive statistics and points per game all day long, but always leave out turnover, sack, time of possession and points against statistics. Who cares if a team averages 10 more points per game if the opposing team is scoring just as much on average due to the increased turnovers, increased sacks and decreased time of possession?

Um, because that's the OC's job? Move the ball and score points. Blaming Martz for bad defense, now i've seen it all. Was he in on 9/11 too? But ok, i'll play along:

Point differential/points against. Again, Martz years in bold:

2006 Lions: -93/398
2007 Lions: -98/444
2008 Lions: -249/517
2009 Lions: -232/ 494

So the Lions fired Martz, the defense got worse, and the scoring differential got WAAYY worse (obviously, because Martz = more scoring...you know, the thing he's paid to do). So much for running the ball to control the clock and keep the other team off the field, which was the reason the Lions canned him. Didn't work out. Seems they were better off throwing it all over the place and SCORING POINTS.

2007 49ers: -145/364
2008 49ers: -42/381

This one is even better. The 49ers defense gave up slightly more than 1 point per game, yet Martz turned the worst offense in modern era football around to the tune of 100+ points. while cutting the scoring differential by over 100 points as a result. Again, explain how he hurts the defense?

As for tunrovers, the 2007 49ers had 34, while the Martz 2008 49ers had...wait for it...35. Martz performed minor miracles with San Fran. How's Singletary doing these days, BTW?

And these are the bad Martz teams. I could post the Greatest Show numbers, which make these points look even worse.

It's all cliches, man. SCORE POINTS. That's all that matters. I'll trade TO's and sacks for 30 points all day long.

[Warner2BruceTD]

The context is pretty clear.

Bottom 1/3 in the League in total offense and points scored.

You wanna quote passing yards along with that? Go ahead. But still, what you have at the end of the day is a below average offense. Closer to the bottom feeders than the contenders.

Next you quoted improvement in DET and SF, which I won't debate. Good for him. He took 2 of the worst offenses in football and made them into groups that finished bottom 1/3, instead of dead last. Nice. Noteworthy???... I guess?!

... I don't care to go round and round about this though. You love him? Great. More power to you. Personally, I think he's the Brett Favre of coordinators. Take away the 90's and what have you got? NOTHIN. And for me, that ain't greatness.

He squeezes every bit of potential out of every offense he runs. What more do you want? Those Lions and 49ers teams were really bad. That's why you need the context of the situations. Saying his offenses finished in the bottom 1/3 misses the point.

[Tailback U]

I like Martz. I think he is one of those guys that is underrated and overrated, at the same time.

My only problem with Martz is that he can't tweak his system to get the most out of what he has. When he has the right personnel and is given enough time with the players so that the system becomes second nature to them, his gameplans and play designs are beautiful.

But, if he isn't working with the right personnel, and he isn't given enough time with the players to get comfortable, he isn't able to adjust it accordingly and tailor the scheme to the offensive personnel.

That's not really his fault, though, because teams know what they are going to get by bringing him in.

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Isn't it his job to get the most out of the players on his roster?

You act as if he should get credit for that, when it's his job description.

We are measuring how well he does his job. There not many coaches that can instantly improve a side of the ball without an overhaul of personnel change. Martz has plugged in his system numerous times with pretty immediate results regardless of talent.
Its pretty clear when the talent is there he can build an elite unit.

One would look at offensive ranking and think Jason Garrett is a guru. Even a cursory look at the talent and his playcalling youd see its very misleading.

I don't see how.

Points scored and total yards are THE stats as far as offenses go, wouldn't you say? Points especially?..

Those are THE bottom line stats, and the measuring stick I would use to gauge any offense.

I thought we were gauging the coach.
Gauging the offense alone like mentioned is devoid of context.

Its like ShayDaPains claim against Norv Turner. Every single place hes gone theres a RB with a career year. Who cares if Terry Allen and Lamont Jordan werent in the top 5-10 in yardage. The fact there production increased by a huge percentage then dropped after the coach was gone is what you need to know.

Theres a reason The Romeo Crenells and Manginis of the world struggle and the Rex Ryans succeed.
Looking only at a units ranking is misleading. Few coaches maximize there units potential. Very few.

Martz is one of the guys I would have full faith in squeezing the most out of my offense.

[citizenerased]

Josh McDaniels > Mike Martz

The same Josh McDaniels who's offence got outscored by Ron Turner's last season?

[Spidey]

The facination with the spread offense at lower levels allows guys like Collins to not only stick in the league years after their usefullness should be expired, but also allows them to see relevent action.

Couldn't agree more. I coached the linemen for the freshman football team at my former high school this year. Imagine my shock when I got there and we are running the spread and tons of shotgun sets. My varsity football season was a mere 8 years ago and shotgun/spread were pretty much unheard of for the high schools in our area then.

To top it off, my brother is in 8th grade playing football in the area and I went to one of his games and both his team and the opponent were using it.

I guess I shouldn't be so surprised. Not only is the NFL a copycat league, football in general is a copycat game. I must say, I am not a fan of this trend though. Firm believer in pounding the football down the opponents throat.

[Senser81]

Now he goes to Chicago, where again he comes into a situation where the OL is TERRIBLE, they have no viable WR's let alone a true #1 WR, and he has the offense playing at a much higher level than the year before with all of the same lousy parts. Yet here come the critics, blaming Martz dfor the sacks, as if the Bears were protecting the shit out of Cutler at any point last year, either.

The Bears are actually scoring fewer points per game this year than last year. Other than the Dallas game, the Bears offense has looked bad. Martz even has the advantage of having a healthy Matt Forte (who has looked really good this year when given the ball) and Chester Taylor. One would expect the Bears offense to be much improved with the return of Forte and the addition of Taylor, yet Martz has made the offense worse by not utilizing two of the best players on the team.

The reason the Bears are 4-1 is because of the addition of Peppers, a healthy Urlacher, and improved special teams play. Not one of those factors has anything to do with Martz.

I like Martz, I think he's good for the league, and I think he proved himself in Detroit and San Fran....but I also think he's done a bad job in Chicago.

[Senser81]

his system/ ideas/Coryell imitations, are genius. the problem is getting the pieces to execute them.

While Martz has many similarities to Coryell, Coryell differed in pass protection and the run game.

Pass Protection
If you look at Coryell's teams with St. Louis and San Diego, you'll see that even though they usually led the league in pass attempts, they would also lead the league in fewest sacks allowed. Coryell developed cohesive offensive lines, used two-TE formations, and had a philosophy of the QB throwing the ball within 3 seconds. This is almost the opposite of Martz, who has rotated his linemen in Chicago, refuses to use his TEs to block, and has every WR running routes that take more than 3 seconds to develop.

Run Game
Coryell almost always had good running games. And he always had a power back who could either bludgeon the defense if they became too reliant on nickel and dime packages, or just run out the clock after the team got the lead. In St. Louis Coryell had Jim Otis, in San Diego Coryell had Chuck Muncie and John Cappelletti. Martz's teams will go long stretches of time without having their RB's even touch the ball.

[jeffx]

Run Game
Coryell almost always had good running games. And he always had a power back who could either bludgeon the defense if they became too reliant on nickel and dime packages, or just run out the clock after the team got the lead. In St. Louis Coryell had Jim Otis, in San Diego Coryell had Chuck Muncie and John Cappelletti. Martz's teams will go long stretches of time without having their RB's even touch the ball.

...and don't forget James Brooks.

[f16harm]

Think of what Mike Martz would be today if he had Bucky Pope.....

[Senser81]

Think of what Mike Martz would be today if he had Bucky Pope.....

No doubt. 25 catches, 786 yards, 31.4 average, 10 TDs....who wouldn't want that in their offense?