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Who ever whispered no to themselves needs to be punched in the face.
The only "fact" worth a shit in this thread is the saints being no.3 on that dirty or borderline list (however subjective that process of selection is).
Most defenders want to hurt the shit out of you. They want you out of the game , they want you to fear them. Period. Woodson Teddy anyone else saying other wise is a bold faced liar. A bounty system makes sure the "most" is almost all. If the rules were always obeyed there would be ZERO issue with this.
Problem is with incentive comes a sacrifice of judgement. Like it or not guys who may typically just push a guy may end up throwing there weight on top and digging an elbow into a spine. A WR catching a ball and giving the "surrender" pose well short of the 1st down instead of getting a simple wrap and fall from a safety he'll get a full head of steam and now you have two guys seeing a white flash and headaches till tuesday.
Im as gruff and manly as Ribeye steak for breakfast so Im the first to call NFL rules pansy and girly. But I also knows there's ALOT of giveaway plays that a Bounty is designed to turn into a 100% kill em play. Players will always do this behind closed doors or locker room trash talk. So be it. The instant coaches who bear no chance of injury get involved you're looking at a very bad situation given the leagues current environment.Best reason to have a license.
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John Madden expects severe penalties in bounty scandal
LOS ANGELES — Hall of Fame coach John Madden said Tuesday that he anticipates NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell will hand out severe punishments in the wake of the so-called "pay for performance" bounty scandal of the New Orleans Saints.
"When (Goodell) does something and he gets them — and I don’t know what the discipline is — but I’ll tell you what, when he puts some teeth in the rules or whatever he’s going to do, it won’t happen again," said Madden, who co-chairs the league’s safety panel with former player Ronnie Lott.
"It will be gone," Madden said of giving improper cash bonuses, as the Saints did, for hits that knock opponents out of games. "You’ll look back years from now and say, ’Remember when they used to do that?’ They won’t do it anymore" with Goodell.
The league has yet to announce any punishments following its lengthy investigation, the results of which were released Friday. Former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, now with the St. Louis Rams, has apologized for his role in the payouts, which were largely funded by a player cash pool and included rewards of $1,000 for a "cart-off" and $1,500 for a knockout.
Others who could be punished include Saints Coach Sean Payton, General Manager Mickey Loomis, and linebacker Jonathan Vilma, who reportedly funded a bounty of $10,000 for anyone who could knock Minnesota quarterback Brett Favre out of the 2009 NFC championship game.
"The cart-off and knockout and those things, that surprised me," Madden said in a phone interview. "I didn’t think that was in the culture. Obviously, it doesn’t belong in the culture, and I know the commissioner is going to get it out. If you’re going to hit someone, it’s usually a quarterback. So I think we have to really watch the quarterbacks and protect them. I know all about the ’they wear skirts’ BS, but we really have to protect them. Because after they throw the ball, they’re really vulnerable.
"If someone’s going to go after someone, they go after a quarterback after he throws the ball, and they go after a running back when he’s down on the ground. That’s when you get the shots."
Madden, who also serves as chairman of the coaches’ subcommittee of the competition committee, said the league is considering limiting the responsibilities of the referee to solely watching the quarterback from the snap through the whistle.
"I don’t know that the referee can be watching holding on the offensive line and get back to the quarterback," he said. "I think watching the quarterback is a full-time job."
Madden said that, although there has been talk of adding an eighth official, he thinks the current crew of seven could handle the job.
"We need to let the referee’s sole thing be to protect the quarterback and get those late hits out of there. They even have a stat on television that says ’knockdowns.’ Knockdowns means that you knock him down after he throws the ball. The assumption is if it’s legal we’ll make excuses for them. They just let defenders beat the hell out of those guys after they throw it. We don’t let them touch a punter or kicker after a ball leaves his foot."
Madden added: "We need the quarterbacks. It’s a passing league and a quarterback-driven league. We need the Peyton Mannings in football uniforms out there playing — the Tom Bradys, the Drew Breeses, the Philip Riverses — we need those guys instead of them standing on the sideline."
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Id disagree with Madden on some points but even old and running out of testosterone his chewed bubble gum knows more about football than I do.
However...its awesome to hear him say "BS"... IIRC its been said Madden was an expletive machine off the air. Very hard to picture that.Best reason to have a license.
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Eliminating "knockdowns" of a Quarterback is so fucking lame. I don't know if I can continue to watch football if they completely ban defenders from knocking down a QB after he has thrown a pass.
How the fuck are you even supposed to rush at full speed and then stop mid sprint just because the QB has released the ball? That's not possible.
I was watching NFL Classic the other day, and I had to take a picture of this. Kind of shitty quality but you can see what the last stat category is if you look hard enough. Obviously, not a real stat, just funny how they threw it in:
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You posted something. I agreed with it. My response got groaned. I (apparently falsely) thought you had a different opinion than me because I got groaned, so my rebuttal under that assumption was also groaned. Then I'm ultimately retarded.
Logic is flowing from every corner of this thread.
EDIT: And FWIW, I agree with the comment you have above about punishing those who have bounties as well. Not sure why people aren't getting that.Comment
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You were groaned because of the following:
The NFL can do all it wants, but the game is built around violence. Until that changes, bounties and intentionally hurting people will always happen (or at least be possible). I don't care either way what direction they decide, but they can't have their cake and eat it too. Either the game changes, or these things continue.
1st sentence: The game is built around violence? Really? Hence my Monty Python line "come see the violence inherent in the system!". Is that supposed to be a 'point'?
2nd sentence: More of the Tailback U line of thinking...bounties will always happen. Again, is that supposed to be a 'point'?
3rd sentence: This is the killer. One, you don't care what the NFL decides. Great, so STFU. Two, the NFL can't have their cake and eat it too. HUH? So, the NFL should be complicit with bounties because the game is violent? Are bounties wrong in the MLB and NBA, but ok in the NFL, because the game is more violent? And how is the NFL "having their cake"? Does the NFL WANT to see its players injured?
4th sentence: Great conclusion. The game needs changing, but punishing bounties is definitely NOT a step in the right direction. "We need to do something about these bounties...but outlawing them wouldn't be logical".
In sum, you are correct. You are the ultimate retard.Comment
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Madden is right.Originally posted by John Madden
Watch any NFL game, and you will see a half dozen instances of (completely legal) cheap shots on the QB after he has released the ball. They vary from hard shoves to light taps to full blown hard tackles.
Why is this allowed? I'm not talking about the kind of hits that are a split second after the ball is out by a defender already committed to the play. You guys know the hits i'm talking about. The defender is looking up, he sees the ball released, and he shoves the QB down or follows through on a tackle, because he knows he's a half step away and won't get flagged. Yet, if a defender lightly grazes a helmet or facemask with his fingertip, that yields a flag. Makes no sense.
I think we get too wrapped up in the idea that Bart Starr threw 12 passes per game and got murdered on all 12 of them, and that Don Meredith broke his nose 16 times, so QB punishment always has been and should be part of the game. Why? To steal an old Jonah Keri (baseball writer) quote, doctors used to think leeches cured headaches, too. Just because something has always been, does not mean it should continue.Comment
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The QBs used to be better athletes in the 1960's and 1970's, and they were bigger in size relative to the d-linemen that were tackling them. In SB IX, Terry Bradshaw was just as big as Alan Page and Jim Marshall. In today's NFL, even big QBs like Ben Roethlisberger are dwarfed by guys like Haoli Ngata.Comment
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I'll answer this backwards because if makes the most sense for me to do it that way.
4th sentence: I want the bounties to be punished. Undoubtedly, without question. The NFL would be absolutely retarded not to do anything about it, for the future of the league and for basic PR purposes.
But they've done this throughout history, and bounties continue to happen in one form or another. Every article posted in this thread supports this claim that almost every team was involved in some type of "pay for performance/injury" scandal (although as W2B said and agreeably, not to the Saints' level).
Will this punishment, whatever it ends up being, be enough? Or do more changes need to be made, like how the game is played?
3rd sentence: I'm not taking a stance either way on what the NFL chooses to do about the future of its league. I'm not stuck in my ways saying "head-hunting is great!", but I also like the game the way it is. The NFL wants to eliminate bounties, but maintain its macho-image and violent play. I just don't think it can accomplish both; the players in the league are too immature and, quite frankly, have too much money to allow for both. I don't think coaches will remain involved (at least not for a while), but the players in some way will continue to bet with each other.
2nd sentence: Hence bounties always being around. The public only knows about these few instances, but it would be naive to think these things weren't happening everywhere. And even with them cracking down on this instance, like they've already done in the past, I don't think that will change with the players betting money underneath the table.
1st sentence: Because of the nature of how football is played, it's easy for these things to happen without noticing. A bounty in basketball is much more obvious than one in football. You spear a guy on the court, you did something that doesn't happen on a regular basis. You dive at the knee of a running back or cut a linebacker, or blindside the safety on a crack block, and that's a good technique.
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Is punishment enough? Is a fine and suspensions enough to change the behavior? Your guess is as good as mine, but my guess is no. That's why I think they need to do more than that to get these things to stop for good. Either the game needs to change, or bounty's will continue (my original argument).
That's about as clear as I can make it. If that makes me retarded, I'm ok with that.Comment
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The standards of forming an argument in this thread are intense. The highest I've ever seen.Comment
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At VSN Convention 2012, I'll put nancy boys like senser81, Warner2Bruce, and FirstTimer on the VSN Injured Reserve for a lot less than ten grand.Comment
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