UFC 103: I guess we get to see what the lowest possible buyrate they can do will be..

[Warner2BruceTD]

The "spectacle/hype" factor is much more important than skilled fighters, and it isnt even close.

Mike Tyson was a much better draw after he started biting ears and eating children. He wasnt nearly as good of a fighter, but that didnt matter.

HBO has taken hype to a new level with 24/7, to the point UFC copied it with the Countdown shows

In terms of what draws, my list would look something like this:

1. Engaging personalities/star aura--totally exclusive of skill
2. Spectacle/hype






3. Everything else


A fighters skill can add to his overall charisma and marketablility, but skill alone can not achieve this. The guy with superstar aura, reagrdless of skill, will outdraw the highly skilled but charisma deprived fighter every day of the week. Kimbo Slice didn't teach you guys anything?

Try to tell me skill level of the fighters is an important factor in drawing, when Kimbo vs. Tank pulls a big number, but Jake Shields vs Robbie Lawler does a fraction of that on the same network.

Explain to me why the WEC shows draw next to nothing unless it's Urijah Faber. Those are great fights with great highly skilled fighters. Almost every WEC show is not good, but great. It's because they aren't stars, end of story. If skill and great fights alone could draw, WEC would beblowing everyone else away.

It's all about personalities, it's a star driven business.

[Liquidrob]

Boxing has more appreciation for skilled fighters, they still like hype, the spectacle, but p4p fighters always get more praise and poeple watching over MMA fighters who are skilled, the technical aspect of ground fighting is not even appreciatated by MMA fans and its what made the sport different

The boxing fan base doesnt go as crazy for the hype as the MMA fan, of course they still like it, but not to the point of the MMA fan and its mostly because of the cross over Pro Wrestling fan driving it

Also, the 24/7 show has a lot about the training, the coaches, etc...

Hype is fine, the spectacle is fine, but boxing is more structured arond skill level, even with Tyson people will still hoping the 'old' tyson would come back, he went to greatness because of his skill level and dominance

[Steel Mamba]

The "spectacle/hype" factor is much more important than skilled fighters, and it isnt even close.

Mike Tyson was a much better draw after he started biting ears and eating children. He wasnt nearly as good of a fighter, but that didnt matter.

HBO has taken hype to a new level with 24/7, to the point UFC copied it with the Countdown shows

In terms of what draws, my list would look something like this:

1. Engaging personalities/star aura--totally exclusive of skill
2. Spectacle/hype






3. Everything else


A fighters skill can add to his overall charisma and marketablility, but skill alone can not achieve this. The guy with superstar aura, reagrdless of skill, will outdraw the highly skilled but charisma deprived fighter every day of the week. Kimbo Slice didn't teach you guys anything?

Try to tell me skill level of the fighters is an important factor in drawing, when Kimbo vs. Tank pulls a big number, but Jake Shields vs Robbie Lawler does a fraction of that on the same network.

Explain to me why the WEC shows draw next to nothing unless it's Urijah Faber. Those are great fights with great highly skilled fighters. Almost every WEC show is not good, but great. It's because they aren't stars, end of story. If skill and great fights alone could draw, WEC would beblowing everyone else away.

It's all about personalities, it's a star driven business.

24/7 is a great show and not a spectacle/BS unless Floyd Mayweather is on it, other than that it's a good documentary used to market the fight. Let’s not confuse marketing with spectacle.

But, yeah there’s no doubt about it having someone with some personality or a feud is definitely going to add to the appeal of the fight for casual and hardcore fans alike. It helps bring in more $, but my point is there’s a problem when that’s all that you’re capable of doing big sales off of. I already pointed out that it’s not that way in boxing, and shouldn’t be that way for MMA either.

Look at it like this, take the PacMan/Hatton fight for an example. I think that fight is probably most comparable to the Machida/Shogun matchup. Both PacMan and Machida are in the top 3 or 4 P4P talks for their sport, yet neither is really a house hold name or posses the biggest star power in the sport. Neither is outlandish like a Mayweather or Brock Lesnar. Hatton is an exciting fighter who was looking to rebound, still talented and one of the best at his class at the time. About the same could be said for Shogun as well. Now the PacMan/Hatton fight did 900k+ buys in America alone and you’re telling me that if Machida/Shogun did 200k then the UFC shouldn’t reexamine the way they’re doing business? That wouldn’t register as a problem, or at least something that needs to be fixed?

I agree with Rob’s assessment on what draws in MMA vs boxing, but I’m hoping those differences aren’t made so obvious by this card doing only 200k buys. I’m still expecting around 4-500k personally.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Ricky Hatton & PacMan are far bigger names than Machida and Shogun. Particularly PacMan in the hispanic community. That fight drew because of star power, not because the fighters were highly skilled.

And no, the UFC has no reason to reexamine the way they do business if Machida dosen't draw, because they have plenty of stars that do. They have been trying to get the public to buy into Anderson Silva for years now, and despite his amazing level of dominance, he still isnt a good draw. It's not a problem, because they can slap together a dozen other fights that will.

This idea that boxing fans are somehow more refined as fans, and respond to skill better than MMA fans, is also off base. Instead of listing boxing matches that did draw (all based on star power, btw) list the ones that have bombed, featuring highly skilled guys with no charisma. The list would be much longer.

In fact, I think it's the opposite. I think MMA fans are much more loyal to the product than boxing fans. Boxing has less than a half dozen guys who are real draws. Live gate, PPV, or TV. None of which are heavyweights. MMA has multiple draw in each weight class, including women.

UFC has done a much, much better job of getting the talent over to the public than boxing has. Boxing's biggest problem is theycant create new stars. If skill = star in boxing, are you telling me boxing is all of a sudden lacking highly skilled fighters? BS. Boxing is lacking star power, and its star power that draws. Boxing has a far deeper talent pool than the UFC, so if this garbage theory that skill = buys was correct, boxing would be kicking the shit out of Dana. Explain to me why the oppposite is occuring?

[Steel Mamba]

I think you have to follow both sports to really see the big picture here, maybe you do, and if so I'm shocked that you're trying to sell their HW division right now. There is not a single HW boxer today that would stand a chance against any of the former HW stars in their prime, the talent in that division has dropped off dramatically and their best guy is usally a bore to watch.

Hatton does not have a lot of star power in the states and while PacMan has always been respected as a good fighter no one really put him at the top until now. His level of dominance in the ring has coincided with his draw power. If its his star power why wasn't he doing numbers like this just 2 to 3 years ago?

So, exactly how is the two top MMA fighters in the world not being a draw not a problem? Lol, doesn't that just prove my point. Look throughout boxings history and you'll see that any top p4p fighter drew, its as simple as that. Its very true that boxing isn't what it used to be both in terms of talent and support, but in its hayday they could still sell a good fight based on the level of talent alone and for the most part the fanbase still responds accordingly today even.

With boxing you become a star when you prove to the world that you're a highly skilled fighter and again PacMan is a perfect example of that. You can also look at Pavlik too, he became a draw when he cemented himself as a true champion, then he gets demolished by b-hop and he's no longer the draw that he used to be. In boxing skill level typically will coincide perfectly with draw power, maybe too much so. Top fighters just aren't expected to lose or have a bad outing for whatever reason. So once you suffer a tough loss your draw power will diminish tremendously. That tells the story right there, also look at DLH tuneup match that was suppose to get him ready for his 2nd fight with Floyd. That fight garnered no attention at all because it was a meaningless and terrible matchup and we're talking about one of the biggest stars in boxing - if it was all about star power in boxing then more people would have tuned in for that. Now you throw Kimbo in the cage against anyone and the mma scene is glued to their tv screens. If that doesn't signify a difference I don't know what will.

[Liquidrob]

I dont know if we are really argueing the same things with W2B

Boxings biggest fights are rooted in skill, you cant say the same for MMA, you cant sell a big time boxing match without having great skill level, it just doesnt work, you can bring up Tyson in the past, but before that it was all about excitment and dominance and people were hoping to see just a glimpse of it again

Here is a good example to prove the differences, the biggest fight right now you can make in boxing is PBF vs Pacman, 2 of the top if not 2 top p4p fighters in the sport, in MMA the biggest fight you can make is Brock vs Kimbo Slice, its not even Brock vs Fedor and I bet Brock vs Lashley would do better than Brock/Fedor, you cant get away with that in boxing

Boxing cant create new stars at the pace of the UFC because of lack of a basic or cable channel that will show good fights, back when boxing was on ABC on the weekends, etc...boxing was able to create stars, plus boxing is losing the young fan, UFC is on Spike, has guys jerking off on Sushi on a reality show, etc...

I dont agree with Mamba that the UFC needs to change there business, but MMA is still somewhat new, it takes time for the skill level to rise overall

[Steel Mamba]

I dont agree with Mamba that the UFC needs to change there business, but MMA is still somewhat new, it takes time for the skill level to rise overall

I'm only saying that the UFC needs to change their business if this PPV does 200k buys. Their model and fanbase will work for them if these type of PPVs can at least post respectable numbers, if not then yeah some things need to change.