Good write-up debunking the 'Fedor Bump'

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  • SHOGUN
    4 WR 1 RB 0 TE. 24/7/365.
    • Jul 2009
    • 11416

    Good write-up debunking the 'Fedor Bump'

    I know Steel Mamba and other pro-UFC guys always like to say that Fedor hasn't fought anybody and they always get some sort of a brush in the rankings just for being in the ring with him to make his opponents look better. I've argued against it before several times and even proposed that UFC fighters are the ones that often receive such bumps, but this guy does a better job of talking about it.

    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/1/17...r-bump-fallacy
    The Heavyweight Grand Prix is only a few weeks away and I look forward to the release of USA Today/SB Nation's consensus ranking so that I can see the huge leap that Fedor Emelianenko's opponent, Antonio "Bigfoot" Silva, makes in the standings. Currently he sits at number 10, but it is common wisdom that as soon as someone is announced as an opponent against Fedor they skyrocket up in the rankings.

    Don't believe me, just take a look at what happened with Fabricio Werdum. On November 19th, 2009 he was ranked number 10 in the consensus rankings. This was less than two weeks after his victory over "Bigfoot" and before his match with Fedor had been announced. And so where was Werdum when the fight went down? By June 24th he had skyrocket all the way to... number 9. What is even more outrageous is that in his rise he had leapfrogged an inactive and unlicensed Josh Barnett and Brett Rogers, who was coming off two losses.

    Ok, so maybe Werdum isn't the best example. But surely no one can forget the bump that Brett Rogers got after he was announced as Fedor's opponent, entering their November 7th, 2009 fight at number 8 in the rankings. And what was Brett's ranking in July of that year, several weeks before Strikeforce announced his fight with Fedor, and even before fans knew that Fedor would be even signed to the promotion? Number 8.

    Well, then what of Josh Barnett who was ranked number 2 before their scheduled match at Affliction 3? Well, he was number 3 in January of that year, going into his "Affliction: Day of Reckoning" fight, and then jumped to number 2 immediately following it on the strength of his victory and, perhaps more importantly, then number 2 Andrei Arlovski's loss.

    Andre Arlovski's himself was number 6 after leaving the UFC and before his fight with number 10 Ben Rothwell. After his impressive showing he jumped to number 4, over future "bump" beneficiaries Josh Barnett and Fabricio Werdum, eventually making it to number 2 in time for his fight with the Last Emperor. Now could we take Arlovski's rise as evidence that the "bump" exists. Perhaps, but the more likely answer might be that while Andrei was beating number 17 Roy Nelson on CBS, both Randy Couture and Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, the two fighters that had been ranked above him, lost.

    The fighter that best provides any evidence of a "bump" is Tim Sylvia, who was number 7 following his exit from the UFC and came in at number 5 by the time Affliction: Banned was held. One problem with using his rankings as evidence is that the consensus ranking where retooled during the interim. As Kid Nate wrote at the time:
    Presenting the relaunch of the Bloody Elbow Meta-Rankings. We took a couple of months off and retooled our approach to include more sources. We also eliminated the weighting we were doing to favor statistical and fan-voting sites.
    So are there any heavyweights that receive a bump? Well, there is one obvious example, a fighter who was unranked in March of 2008, following his victory over an unranked, 1-0 UFC novice, came in at number 15 after he was announced to fight for the interim title, and number 10 by the time the fight took place in December of 2009. And during that whole time, as he was rising in the ranks, he didn't have a single fight that could explain his rise.

    This fighter's name is Frank Mir, and unfortunately for "bump" theorists his opponent was Big Nog and not Fedor.

     
    "Sometimes I just want to be with my family and watch movie and eat some popcorn. But when I step on the mat I know there is no other place I'd rather be." - Marcelo Garcia
  • Liquidrob
    Izzy is a bum
    • Feb 2009
    • 11785

    #2
    the fedor bump is a myth but the zuffa bump is going strong

    just win 1 or 2 non top 10 fights and you're auto top 10 sometimes top 5, see hardy, jones, florian, etc...
    Liquidrob's Top 10 Fighters Rankings


    The 10 Fighters Who Changed The Game

    Comment

    • Steel Mamba
      Nasty
      • Nov 2008
      • 2549

      #3
      I dunno how I get lumped in as a pro UFC guy & the argument about Fedor not fighting anyone was awhile back when he was going against Tim Sylvia and Hong Man Choi. I've had nothing bad to say with his recent and upcoming competition.

      Comment

      • Steel Mamba
        Nasty
        • Nov 2008
        • 2549

        #4
        & I still don't see where I was wrong anyway. I've always had Fedor as the #1 HW, but in terms of P4P when hes been fighting the guys he has as of late how can I put him over the likes of GSP or Anderson Silva? Two guys who have cleaned out their division and in dominate fashion. Fedor has fought some good opponents, but there's still a lot of better names out there for him to face, that's just the reality of the matter. But, the tournament will solve that which is why I'm really looking forward to it.

        Comment

        • EmpireWF
          Giants in the Super Bowl
          • Mar 2009
          • 24082

          #5
          Originally posted by Liquidrob

          just win 1 or 2 non top 10 fights and you're auto top 10 sometimes top 5, see hardy, jones, florian, etc...
          Assume you're talking about Bones. Well, if he's not a top 10 guy, who is?


          Comment

          • Kuzzy Powers
            Beautiful Like Moses
            • Oct 2008
            • 12541

            #6
            Originally posted by EmpireWF
            Assume you're talking about Bones. Well, if he's not a top 10 guy, who is?
            He uhh kinda specified who he was talking about, you dont have to assume.

            Comment

            • EmpireWF
              Giants in the Super Bowl
              • Mar 2009
              • 24082

              #7
              Originally posted by EmpireWF
              Assume you're talking about Bones. Well, if he's not a top 10 guy, who is?


              Comment

              • SHOGUN
                4 WR 1 RB 0 TE. 24/7/365.
                • Jul 2009
                • 11416

                #8
                Originally posted by EmpireWF
                Assume you're talking about Bones. Well, if he's not a top 10 guy, who is?

                 
                "Sometimes I just want to be with my family and watch movie and eat some popcorn. But when I step on the mat I know there is no other place I'd rather be." - Marcelo Garcia

                Comment

                • SHOGUN
                  4 WR 1 RB 0 TE. 24/7/365.
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 11416

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Liquidrob
                  the fedor bump is a myth but the zuffa bump is going strong

                  just win 1 or 2 non top 10 fights and you're auto top 10 sometimes top 5, see hardy, jones, florian, etc...
                  I'm not going to have you slander KenFlo like that. Florian had upped his game and was cleaning shop before he froze up against BJ. UFC's division was weak, but Stevenson and Huerta were top dogs then and quality opponents.

                   
                  "Sometimes I just want to be with my family and watch movie and eat some popcorn. But when I step on the mat I know there is no other place I'd rather be." - Marcelo Garcia

                  Comment

                  • Steel Mamba
                    Nasty
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 2549

                    #10
                    Originally posted by SHOGUN
                    I'm not going to have you slander KenFlo like that. Florian had upped his game and was cleaning shop before he froze up against BJ. UFC's division was weak, but Stevenson and Huerta were top dogs then and quality opponents.
                    BJ and Sherk, now Maynard also. He hasn't beaten a top guy yet.

                    Comment

                    • SHOGUN
                      4 WR 1 RB 0 TE. 24/7/365.
                      • Jul 2009
                      • 11416

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Steel Mamba
                      BJ and Sherk, now Maynard also. He hasn't beaten a top guy yet.
                      That was Florian's debut at 155 and he was still a relative nobody back then.

                      Sherk has never been considered a 'top guy' at LW. UFC's LW division back then was paper thin. Borderline Top 10 at his best - even with the PEDs.

                       
                      "Sometimes I just want to be with my family and watch movie and eat some popcorn. But when I step on the mat I know there is no other place I'd rather be." - Marcelo Garcia

                      Comment

                      • Liquidrob
                        Izzy is a bum
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 11785

                        #12
                        Originally posted by SHOGUN
                        I'm not going to have you slander KenFlo like that. Florian had upped his game and was cleaning shop before he froze up against BJ. UFC's division was weak, but Stevenson and Huerta were top dogs then and quality opponents.
                        it's not slander, but by rankings logic that everyone seems to use, beating higher ranked guys than you or whatever you move up

                        Florian was touted as a top 5, some people have him at 3 or 4 at times when he never once beat a top LW, maybe some fringe top 10 guys at best

                        Joe Daddy did nothing at LW, Huerta, etc...Florian never beat anyone to get that high but he was

                        Just like John Jones, who has beat in the top 10? No one, but he is the top 10 everywhere
                        Liquidrob's Top 10 Fighters Rankings


                        The 10 Fighters Who Changed The Game

                        Comment

                        • Steel Mamba
                          Nasty
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 2549

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Liquidrob
                          it's not slander, but by rankings logic that everyone seems to use, beating higher ranked guys than you or whatever you move up

                          Florian was touted as a top 5, some people have him at 3 or 4 at times when he never once beat a top LW, maybe some fringe top 10 guys at best

                          Joe Daddy did nothing at LW, Huerta, etc...Florian never beat anyone to get that high but he was

                          Just like John Jones, who has beat in the top 10? No one, but he is the top 10 everywhere
                          Having Florian that high was a mistake. But, Jon Jones is a different story. Jones even though he doesn't have the resume yet, you can see that he's more talented than Florian and has the talent of a top 10 LHW. If he's not in the top 10 I'd be interested in seeing who makes it in over him.

                          Comment

                          • SHOGUN
                            4 WR 1 RB 0 TE. 24/7/365.
                            • Jul 2009
                            • 11416

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Liquidrob
                            it's not slander, but by rankings logic that everyone seems to use, beating higher ranked guys than you or whatever you move up

                            Florian was touted as a top 5, some people have him at 3 or 4 at times when he never once beat a top LW, maybe some fringe top 10 guys at best

                            Joe Daddy did nothing at LW, Huerta, etc...Florian never beat anyone to get that high but he was

                            Just like John Jones, who has beat in the top 10? No one, but he is the top 10 everywhere
                            You have a point and I attribute some of it to ZUFFA hype, but you can't forget to factor in the shifting sands that come with losses of higher ranked guy and you can't totally dismiss strength of performance into the equation. That's how BJ Penn stayed at the top.

                            The shifting sands part of rankings is a key to how the UFC guys make their rankings and it helps them that they are in the MMA epicenter with the premier brand. Looking at LW, while Aoki, Alvarez, Kawajiri and Hansen were beating the shit out of each other on regular basis in Japan, it made opportunities for guys like Florian, Sherk, Griffin, etc. to rise - undeserved or not.

                            And sometimes it's hard to really find. Just Look at the LHW division, it gets murky as hell after the top four guys and you'd be hard pressed to make a consensus argument about a lot of them. Jones (and to a much lesser extent Bader) is in the Top 10 because of strong performances and the fact that the rest of field is slacking.

                             
                            "Sometimes I just want to be with my family and watch movie and eat some popcorn. But when I step on the mat I know there is no other place I'd rather be." - Marcelo Garcia

                            Comment

                            • EmpireWF
                              Giants in the Super Bowl
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 24082

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Liquidrob
                              Just like John Jones, who has beat in the top 10? No one, but he is the top 10 everywhere
                              So take Bones, Bader, Mo, Feijao out...

                              Who is the top ten?

                              205 isn't what it was 5 years ago.


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