John Cena: First ballot Wrestling Observer HOF'er

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

And, Sting has a lot of really really good matches for an average worker.

[Guest]

Just a question out of curiosity, how can Cena get it on the first try, but Jeff Hardy is removed from the ballot for receiving less than 10%. Doesn't seem right to me, though I am not saying that Hardy is the GOAT or anything along those lines. If anything, more of an indictment for Cena.

[Warner2BruceTD]

It should be noted that during the three year period that Sting was working house shows on top, and Flair was gone (91-93) , WCW was averaging something like 1500 per show. To put that on perspective, ROH draws that on NYC several tomes per year.

Those were also the worst years for WCW until the very end when they basically gave up. Particularly 1993.

Also, all of those quotes are big Dave, I figured you wouldnt want to be bothered with random geeks. These threads are awesome and always like 20 pages long. Sting brings the controversy.

I dont think Sting was a terrible draw, but he wasnt nearly as popular as we remember him being.

Push =/= popularity

[Warner2BruceTD]

Because WCW, while a quick riser, wasn't an overnight success. They built with Hogan, with Nitro, with the NWO, and dominating 97. All of it laid the groundwork for them to put up the crazy numbers they did in 98. Goldberg put it over the top. t if you're only putting guys in the HOF who directly caused huge bumps in business, that's going to be a really small Hall.

That's not the case. Goldberg isnt in and never will be, for example. No longevity. There are also many people in the hall who never drew a dime, based on workrate.

Elite draws get in. Elite workers get in. Elite draws who were elite workers obviously get in. Sting is none of the above and that is why he is so divisive.

Just a question out of curiosity, how can Cena get it on the first try, but Jeff Hardy is removed from the ballot for receiving less than 10%. Doesn't seem right to me, though I am not saying that Hardy is the GOAT or anything along those lines. If anything, more of an indictment for Cena.

It was the first year on the ballot for both. Anybody who falls below 10% gets dropped from the ballot. They can can back later if enough people make a case for them, or if their career advances and there is new body of work to consider.

As long as you stay over 10%, you stay on the ballot. That's why people like Curt Hennig, Owen Hart, etc have stayed on for so many years, at that 20-40% level, yet will never get in.

[Warner2BruceTD]

And, Sting has a lot of really really good matches for an average worker.

Agreed. People are too hard on his work. He's a lot like Cena in that regard.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

It should be noted that during the three year period that Sting was working house shows on top, and Flair was gone (91-93) , WCW was averaging something like 1500 per show. To put that on perspective, ROH draws that on NYC several tomes per year.

Those were also the worst years for WCW until the very end when they basically gave up. Particularly 1993.

Also, all of those quotes are big Dave, I figured you wouldnt want to be bothered with random geeks. These threads are awesome and always like 20 pages long. Sting brings the controversy.

I dont think Sting was a terrible draw, but he wasnt nearly as popular as we remember him being.

Push =/= popularity

While I agree with the bold...I don't think quantifiable "drawing" = "popularity" either. Certainly a draw is popular...but not all popular wrestlers are "draws". So much more goes into "drawing" than simply being a name. For example from 91-93, in Flair's steed, booking was also shit as well and as mentioned in a moment, the WWF's ratings and buyrates were on a sharp decline.

Sting at the top in 90 and even 91 was popping good buyrates for PPVs and ratings for Clash events. 91 was down from 90, but still respectable enough numbers. 92 and 93 were the drizzling shits, however...WWF was also experiencing a decline in numbers in 92 and subsequently 93 as well. As we discussed in the Austin discussion...there is a certain ebb and flow to the business as a whole...the early and into the mid 90's where a downturn for the entire business in the U.S. Sting was the top guy for WCW (and when you were being pushed for what was rough 2.5 years, its no longer a "push"...you're the top guy) during a bad period for business, but it business was declining for everyone.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Agreed. People are too hard on his work. He's a lot like Cena in that regard.

My issue with Cena is this...once the WWF/E purchased WCW and became this monster entity of "Sports Entertainment"...calling anyone a "draw" is silly...the company draws, not an individual.

It is kind of like calling Peyton Manning or Tom Brady a "bigger draw" than Joe Namath or Dan Marino.

With that said...Cena and Sting are very comparable in-ring. Both have some real stinkers on their resume...both have some legitimate gems and all-time great matches.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Let me defend my ten picks, and explain why i'm not so sure on the other ten, and then you guys can tell me why i'm an idiot if you disagree (which undoubtedly you will, because nobody agrees on this shit)

Who I would have voted for (I don't know a lot about some of the pre-1970's historical figures):

John Cena - Honestly it's hard to take anybody seriously who would vote no. The top guy in the top company for nearly a decade. Maybe the top merch pusher ever. Better worker than given credit for. Tireless worker who is an amazing ambassador for the business (all time Make-a-Wish leader, not for westling, but for anybody). Main evented top grossing wrestling show of all time. No brainer choice.

Kensuke Sasaki - 20+ years on top. Only man to hold all three top Japanese world titles (IWGP, GHC, & Triple Crown), in an environment where that still matters. Headlined multiple Tokyo Dome main events that drew 60,000+. Too many legendary matches to name. One of the most respected trainers in the world. Killed a trainee by accident, possibly costing him votes. Nobody knows what really happened, most assume it to be accidental.

Carlos Colon - Top draw in Puerto Rico for 20+ years. THE star, drew monster gates for two decades against a revolvning door of heels like Abdullah, Flair, Ivader I, Brody, etc. Has possibly drawn more money than any man not currently in hall. Would probably have been in years ago if not for the Brody murder that happened on his watch and many feel he helped cover up.

Bill Apter - My mind is blown on this one. Who was more influential than Apter? If Apter decided to make you a star, he did (Sting, Luger, Sabu, Kerry Von Erich, Tommy Rich, Road Warriors etc etc). Who didn't read the Apter mags if you were of that age? To this day, wrestlers pay to be included in the PWI 500. During their heyday, the Apter mags helped every promoter in the country draw money. Apter was better at making stars than half the promoters.

Rock & Roll Express - They may not have invented the looooong tag team heat spot & hot tag, but they perfected it. R&R matches laid the groundwork for nearly every tag team match that took place from 1984-the present. With the exception of the Road Warriors and maybe one or two others, probably the most influential tag team ever, especially in terms of knock offs. Awesome draws in multiple territories, and legendary matches against the Midnight Express and others.

Jerry Jarrett - Memphis was the last territory to die, lasting well into the late 90's. Jarrett was a cheap payoff man which probably hurts him, and he also failed his last attempt to promote, with the weekly PPV Nashville days of TNA. But I can't ignore decades of Memphis being a top territory and the fact that he is one of the best bookers of all time.

Hiroshi Tanahashi - Has a lot of career ahead of him, but i'd put him in right now. Best wrestler in the world, without question. Smack dab in the midst of becoming a certified legendary figure. New Japan was on its death bed, and on his back has slowly crawled out and is now to the point that they are probably the #2 promotion in the world today. He will get in eventually, that's a lock. Why fuck around, i'd do it now.

Fabulous Moolah - Again, influence. She controlled all the top women wrestlers from the end of the Billy White Wolf era until national expansion took over. Not as big of a star as she is perceived to be (thanks to her Hulkamania era run), but a big enough star that it helps her case, and a key WWE heel during the early days of the expansion.

Don Owen - This is a disgrace. Same reasons as Jarrett. Portland lasted until the late 90's and his TV was the longest running wrestling show in US history. I'm baffled. One of the best promoters ever.

Pedro Morales - Big time ethnic draw between the two Bruno runs in the WWWF. Sold out MSG many many times. Long term drawing champion in the days when if you didn't draw, you were replaced. Jobber to the stars run in the mid 80's probably hurts him in the eyes of younger voters.






On the fence:

Jesse Ventura - Wrestling career doesnt stack up, but a key figure in a hot WWF period. Obviously famous outside wrestling. Always comes up five or so votes short. I lean yes.

LA Park - Not yet.

Sting - see thread

Edge - Can't shake the idea he was just a cog in the machine.

Gorilla Monsoon - Fondly remembered if you are under 40, but considered a terrible announcer by people at the time. I lean yes, when you factor in a borderline HOF wrestling career, influence as a part owner of both WWF & WWC, etc.

Blue Panther - Upper mid card heel for many years, top level worker. Never a true tippy top headliner, even after face turn. Honestly I need more information.

Jimmy Snuka - Again, never THE guy, but a key guy early on in WWF expansion, good All Japan runs, etc. But flopped in AWA when pushed as the star. Surpassed by Hogan and others and became a secondary figure. WWF didnt miss a beat without him.

Sgt Slaughter - Top draw in Carolinas, WWF, other places, could go in his day, very famous, perhaps the most famous non WWF wrestler of his era. Maybe second to Hogan, period (apologies to Piper & Andre). That's amazing considering he was in the dying AWA. I lean yes, but can see the no side (flopped in AWA, but it may have been impossible not to by then, and he went back to WWF and was a top star who did draw as a heel).

Vampiro - Huge draw in Mexico in the early 90's, but no longevity. Flopped in the U.S.

Curt Hennig - Great worker, top guy, but never really a draw. On top of AWA right before the really big decline, but his title run was nothing special at the gate. His house show run with Hogan in '89 was the worst drawing Hogan program to that point. If Sting isn't in, he can't be either, unless you think he deserves to be as a worker. My favorite wrestler ever, but I have to be fair. He comes up short.

Batista - I lean strongly no. Very good draw, particularly the Triple H feud. Neck & neck with Cena at times. But no longevity. Just another guy towards the end of his run. Not a great worker. Mediocre, actually.

[Warner2BruceTD]

My issue with Cena is this...once the WWF/E purchased WCW and became this monster entity of "Sports Entertainment"...calling anyone a "draw" is silly...the company draws, not an individual.

It is kind of like calling Peyton Manning or Tom Brady a "bigger draw" than Joe Namath or Dan Marino.

While I tend to agree with this, there is a reason Cena will always be a RAW guy, there is a reason Vince rushes Cena back from injuries, and doesn't want him taking too much time off.

House shows with Cena do better business, he sells the most merch, and his segments move TV ratings. RAW house shows outdraw SmackDown house shows, and it would reverse if he switched.

If Cena quit tomorrow, the house of cards would not collapse, but certain things would dip. He's not Hogan or Austin or Rock or Bruno but he's the next tier and means more than Orton, Punk, Big Show, Misterio,etc.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I have zero issue with anyone of your "YES" choices...

Of the choices you were fence'd on...

Ventura is a very very interesting case. As a wrestler and draw alone...probably not, but his work far exceeds what went on when then lights were on. I'd say yes. The man went into political office for the most part, based on him being THE BODY. Linda McMahon could learn a thing or two about winning an election from Jesse.

LA Park...if I voted right now, the answer is no.

Sting...Yup.

Edge...if Cena is first ballot...and you give Batista the loads of credit you give him in your little write up (even with your strong-no vote)...Edge is in eventually...I put him over Batista easily.

Gorilla...Obvious yes for a multitude reasons.

Blue Panther...he falls in that same tier as guys like Hennig and Owen.

Jimmy Snuka...more popular and revered in the WWF bubble than he really was. I'd vote no.

Sgt. Slaughter...emphatic yes. Insanely popular. So much so, Sarge has a spot in the new GI Joe movie...you laugh, but it gives you an idea of how popular and iconic he was. I would bet cash-money he sold more action figures than anyone in the history of wrestling.

Vampiro...no.

Perfect...I want to say yes, because I like him.

Batista...Not even close.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Paul Heyman vs Jerry Jarrett/Don Owen

Heyman ran a promotion that lasted less than a decade and ultimately lost money. Yes, he conned his way on to national TV and made chicken soup out of chicken shit, but the end game is money and he made none. Jarrett & Owen lasted decades and made millions.

Now, ECW did end up making millions - for Vince McMahon many years later. And the influence of ECW is obvious and really the most important part of Heyman's story. It changed wrestling. But it still failed.

And Heyman was obviously a brilliant booker and made stars who are in some cases still stars to this day out of marginal indie guys like Tommy Dreamer, Dudleys, Taz, Sandman, et al. He was also influential in giving breaks to smaller wrestlers like Eddy, Rey, Malenko, Benoit, etc which set the tone for the next decade.

Jarrett was a great booker in his own right, but only in his own bubble and he had little influence.

Also, Heyman booked Smackdown & OVW are the two most well received periods of each brand/entity.

He was/is a hall of fame caliber manager and one of the best promo men ever. Owen was just a promoter and Jarrett was not hall of fame level at anything but promoting.

So Heyman is in.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

While I tend to agree with this, there is a reason Cena will always be a RAW guy, there is a reason Vince rushes Cena back from injuries, and doesn't want him taking too much time off.

House shows with Cena do better business, he sells the most merch, and his segments move TV ratings. RAW house shows outdraw SmackDown house shows, and it would reverse if he switched.

If Cena quit tomorrow, the house of cards would not collapse, but certain things would dip. He's not Hogan or Austin or Rock or Bruno but he's the next tier and means more than Orton, Punk, Big Show, Misterio,etc.

I think the WWE sees those dips because they've set themselves up to have those dips. They've pushed the fuck out of Cena to the point where he really is projected as the only legitimate top guy. But, there are fragments of evidence here and there...certain segments popping...certain buyrates...certain merch pushers that suggest that if it weren't Cena, it'd be somebody else. It isn't a knock on Cena so much as it is a knock on the WWE and what they've created. I mean, Punk has finally been pushed as the top guy...he sells as much merch as Cena at this point...he's maintaining the status quo in buyrates (despite the latest reports that RYBACK was the one who popped the HIAC number lololol) and ratings while "dropping" aren't anything other than normal seasonal ebb and flow...and Punk is the opposite of the image they project from a top guy...but after Punk...they legitimately have no one else. Certainly not Orton or any of those other wrestlers.

While I don't want to take anything away from Cena...I mean, we've discussed many times before how we both feel Cena is under appreciated...but at the same I can't hold Cena up on a pedestal as a top tier draw...hell, I don't even know if I could say he is second tier.

I mean, there are fewer eyes on wrestling today than any time in its history, and Cena is the "top guy". RAW is getting ratings that are as low as they've been since what...1997? And, surely, we wouldn't give Michaels or Hart any credit as being a legitimate "draw". I mean, surely we aren't giving Cena credit for the popped buyrate at 'Mania? You could certainly skew the numbers ala the Sting discussion to discredit Cena...I think it is unfair to Cena though...he's a shoe in Hall of Famer, to me...but, I wouldn't put him in there as an elite tier draw though...I'd put him in there for a few reasons.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Ernesto Ocampo, editor of SuperLuchas magazine, submitted a full ten person ballot that did not include Dr. Wagner Sr, who came up one vote short.

He's taking some heat.

Last year, Wagner Sr was accidentally left off of the ballot by Meltzer completely due to an oversight. Dr. Wagner Jr got a spike in votes because a few people were confused. What a disaster.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Jerry Jarrett and Don Owen are such no brainers I wouldn't even realize they weren't in.

Those two bastards were profiting off territories over a decade after territories were dead lolololol

As for Heyman...obvious.

The man's ideas changed wrestling forever...not only that, but his influence and eye for talent essentially blossomed the entire post-Attitude Era WWE TWICE...Smackdown Six era and the Reign of CM Punk...was also a big proponent for John Cena...all while Vince gives him the Jim Ross treatment...impressive. Also, one could give him a heap of credit for molding the biggest MMA draw of all-timez.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

btw - just for reference...my criteria for the Hall of Fame...ANY Hall of Fame, whether it be college football, pro football, basketball, chess, whatever has always been the same...

Can you tell the story of whatever it is your Hall of Fame is without this person? To me, that is the ultimate equalizer and often makes the question as to whether someone is a Hall of Famer very easy.