EPL Discussion

[kyhadley]

You definitely have a woe is me attitude. Your club won the Champions League and FA Cup last season and is reasonably positioned to win 2 major trophies again. And you're sitting here acting as if the wheels are coming off and you're about to finish outside the top 10 or something.

The team out there yesterday should've handled Southampton with relative ease. It isn't on Rafa that they couldn't do it. Like others have said, you have a squad of players who rotate. Rafa not placing priority on a team barely above relegation with United on Monday was absolutely the right call. You guys are probably going to finish top 4 anyways and all your bitching will be for nothing.

Whatever if you think that's the attitude I have then I guess you'll have to deal with it. Yes we are still in a good position. I just think we could be in a better one. Sorry I'm not complacent. I can only analyze and speculate on what I see and try to present my thoughts and opinions here with as little bias and sensationalism as possible.

Re: your second paragraph it's as if you hadn't read any of my previous posts. I've addressed each of those points already.

[kyhadley]

CB's question is perfectly valid then - given that you feel this way, is Arsenal achieving this over the past 7 seasons then an accomplishment? Because if you say yes, and have either ever made fun of Arsenal for that, or ever do in the future, you are total hypocrite.

It's a nearly impossible hypothetical to think about. Part of the reason I feel emphatic about top 4 being the priority is because we have won lots of trophies recently, so there really isn't the pressure for it. Our club has bought itself time with its recent success. In fact at the beginning of this season, most Chelsea fans were going into it thinking of it as one of transition. We just hoped for top 4, maybe fight for 3rd, maybe win a trophy somewhere. There was no urgency, and this was still with Di Matteo.

It's hard to compare to Arsenal, who due to fans and media alike, have that pressure and urgency just as the number of trophy-less years grows. So CB was right, Arsene can't win. His task is nearly impossible, the pressure is on in every competition.

That pressure just doesn't exist for the Chelsea manager, whoever it has breathing room (from the fans, who knows how it works with the owner).

Rafa fielded a weaker side, relatively speaking. But you are still refusing to answer the follow-up to that, which is that the side that was fielded was of sufficient quality to expect a victory over the opponent at hand. Or are you going to claim that the side full of internationals and worth hundreds of millions cannot reasonably be expected to be a relegation-threatened side that had 6 wins all season?

Let's get scientific. Say that the squad Rafa put out there would beat that Southampton team 66% of the time, might be accurate who knows. That means that they are clearly capable of beating them most of the time, in fact you could even say you'd expect it.

But if Cole, Hazard, Ba and Ramires start that game, I'd say that lineup wins closer to >85% of the time. I want that 19% increase in likelihood of winning.

So regardless of the numbers, it's undeniable that putting out a better lineup increases the likelihood of winning, and I just would have preferred not taking that chance. Benitez thought the opposite.

[Bigpapa42]

Of course I understand the reasoning why Rafa rotated yesterday to try to save it for the cups... that is exactly why it is a problem. He is not serving the best interests of the club, but himself. And of course it is Roman's and Emenalo's and Buck's fault for bringing Rafa in in what you accept as a terrible decision. .

The bolded is opinion. Not fact. And its what makes you looked horribly biased against Rafa, like a lot of Chelsea supporters. As others have stated, clubs exist to win trophies. Winning trophies, therefore, is the fundametal goal of any club. It is rather illogical to prioritize the possibility of winning a future trophy over the realistic possibility of winning two trophies this season. Even if you point to Chelsea winning the CL last season, the reality is that they had the chance to defend that trophy this season and failed horribly. So if Benitez did prioritize finishing fourth over the two possible trophies, there is absolutely no guarantee it would mean a long CL run next season for the club.

Unless Benitez was brought in and told his only goal - ONLY - was to finish in the top four and nothing else matterd, then I don't see how he is "betraying the club" or any of that bullshit. He is doing what he was asked to do and prioritizing in a manner that you don't like. Yet its a perfectly logical and justifiable set of priorities. Whining about that is why Chelsea fans get a poor reputation amongst other supporters...

It's a nearly impossible hypothetical to think about. Part of the reason I feel emphatic about top 4 being the priority is because we have won lots of trophies recently, so there really isn't the pressure for it. Our club has bought itself time with its recent success. In fact at the beginning of this season, most Chelsea fans were going into it thinking of it as one of transition. We just hoped for top 4, maybe fight for 3rd, maybe win a trophy somewhere. There was no urgency, and this was still with Di Matteo.

It's hard to compare to Arsenal, who due to fans and media alike, have that pressure and urgency just as the number of trophy-less years grows. So CB was right, Arsene can't win. His task is nearly impossible, the pressure is on in every competition.

That pressure just doesn't exist for the Chelsea manager, whoever it has breathing room (from the fans, who knows how it works with the owner).

Let's get scientific. Say that the squad Rafa put out there would beat that Southampton team 66% of the time, might be accurate who knows. That means that they are clearly capable of beating them most of the time, in fact you could even say you'd expect it.

But if Cole, Hazard, Ba and Ramires start that game, I'd say that lineup wins closer to >85% of the time. I want that 19% increase in likelihood of winning.

So regardless of the numbers, it's undeniable that putting out a better lineup increases the likelihood of winning, and I just would have preferred not taking that chance. Benitez thought the opposite.

So taking away all the contextualizing and rationalizing, it really comes down to you feeling that what Arsenal does is not an accomplishment yet you want your club to view it as such. Taking away the biases of the fans and what you are demanding that Benetiz do something that isn't that logical.

The comment about Wenger being in a no-win situation is rather telling. From my perspective, Benitez (who I am no huge fan of, BTW) is in a similar no-win situation. Any which way he approaches things, he is going to be taking flack from segments of fans and segments of the media.

As for the "scientific approach", I have not seen anyone try to claim that playing the rested players would have given Chelsea less of a chance to win that game. Its quite simply that expecting the side that was fielded to win that match is perfectly reasonable.

[kyhadley]

The bolded is opinion. Not fact. And its what makes you looked horribly biased against Rafa, like a lot of Chelsea supporters. As others have stated, clubs exist to win trophies. Winning trophies, therefore, is the fundametal goal of any club. It is rather illogical to prioritize the possibility of winning a future trophy over the realistic possibility of winning two trophies this season. Even if you point to Chelsea winning the CL last season, the reality is that they had the chance to defend that trophy this season and failed horribly. So if Benitez did prioritize finishing fourth over the two possible trophies, there is absolutely no guarantee it would mean a long CL run next season for the club.

Unless Benitez was brought in and told his only goal - ONLY - was to finish in the top four and nothing else matterd, then I don't see how he is "betraying the club" or any of that bullshit. He is doing what he was asked to do and prioritizing in a manner that you don't like. Yet its a perfectly logical and justifiable set of priorities. Whining about that is why Chelsea fans get a poor reputation amongst other supporters...



So taking away all the contextualizing and rationalizing, it really comes down to you feeling that what Arsenal does is not an accomplishment yet you want your club to view it as such. Taking away the biases of the fans and what you are demanding that Benetiz do something that isn't that logical.

The comment about Wenger being in a no-win situation is rather telling. From my perspective, Benitez (who I am no huge fan of, BTW) is in a similar no-win situation. Any which way he approaches things, he is going to be taking flack from segments of fans and segments of the media.

As for the "scientific approach", I have not seen anyone try to claim that playing the rested players would have given Chelsea less of a chance to win that game. Its quite simply that expecting the side that was fielded to win that match is perfectly reasonable.

Yes it's opinion, but really so is any speculation. I don't mean to express it as fact so that's my bad. Maybe just infer that any statement I make whose truth is impossible to verify, is opinion.

There is no guarantee, but it increases the likelihood. I don't like dealing in absolutes.

But you can't take away all the contextualizing and rationalizing! That's part of the basis for my feelings! If Chelsea don't win another trophy for 7 years then who knows how I'll feel. But because they have recently, I feel differently. It's not that finishing fourth is an accomplishment, that's just what I would rather happen as a fan at this moment in time. Not sure what else to say.

Yes he's prioritizing in a manner that I don't like! Exactly! What makes it whining? That I keep responding defending my point? In what way could I be expressing my thoughts without whining? Keep them to myself?

We're arguing in circles regarding the team's capability to win. I've repeatedly accepted the team's quality. But it will not be as high quality as the team put out on Monday which is my issue. It will just keep coming back to that.

[Anthony]

I'm really failing to understand this "We won a trophy last year, who cares if we win one this year. It's all about the top 4" attitude.

Fuck that shit. I want trophies, I want every fucking trophy. If my club is in a competition, I want them to win it. We don't sing "We've finished in the top 4 eighteen times." We sing "We've won it 5 times." Nothing else matters.

[kyhadley]

You are so oversimplifying this. I also want to win every game, every competition that we compete in. But we have to rotate as you've graciously pointed out. I prioritize the Champions league over the FA cup and Europa league. So if it means sacrificing the FA cup and Europa league this year to have a chance to win the Champions league next year, fine.

So I'm really failing to understand how this is so difficult for you to understand. It's a pretty common way of thinking.

It's funny you say that since you wouldn't be able to sing that you'd won it five times if you hadn't made sure of qualifying for the tournament the season prior.

I'd rather sing of winning the champions league a second time next year, then sing about however many times we've won the FA cup this year. And no one is ever going to be singing about the Europa league.

[Anthony]

You are so oversimplifying this. I also want to win every game, every competition that we compete in. But we have to rotate as you've graciously pointed out. I prioritize the Champions league over the FA cup and Europa league. So if it means sacrificing the FA cup and Europa league this year to have a chance to win the Champions league next year, fine.

So I'm really failing to understand how this is so difficult for you to understand. It's a pretty common way of thinking.

It's funny you say that since you wouldn't be able to sing that you'd won it five times if you hadn't made sure of qualifying for the tournament the season prior.

I'd rather sing of winning the champions league a second time next year, then sing about however many times we've won the FA cup this year. And no one is ever going to be singing about the Europa league.

Yes. Clearly I'm the only one who thinks that you're not making sense. It's so common that no one else here knows what you're on about.

I say if you're in a competition you play to win. You say if its the FA cup or Europa league to not give your best effort in the hopes that you qualify for the Champions League. I along with everyone else get what you're saying and it makes no sense. Trophies, all I want is trophies. All your trophies are belong to us. That's the attitude of our supporters, so this prioritising 4th is pretty damn alien to me. It seems like a rather apathetic attitude if you ask me. We all dream of going to Wembley, but like I said, we want every trophy and it's why we sing...


Look out Wembley here we come,
With our best shooting boots on,
The Cup ties have started
You think it's a joke,
Each morning at training
This is what the players are saying
"When at your toe the ball you get.
Crack it right into the net,
And we'll get to Wembley yet,
Look out Wembley here we come".

See those twinkling toes of Payne,
Up to his old tricks again,
A flick and a twist,
He's away up the wing.
The half back left standing,
See he's also beat the full back,
Then across the centre will go,
Directly to Liddell's toe,
Crack! And the rest you know,
Look out Wembley here we come!

We'll just have to disagree to disagree- Si Robertson

[kyhadley]

Good for you. Enjoy your League cups and Europa leagues then. I want to be the best club in the world, not the best club in the premier league mid table.

[Anthony]

Good for you. Enjoy your League cups and Europa leagues then. I want to be the best club in the world, not the best club in the premier league mid table.

Fuck off Chelsea FC
You ain't got no history
5 European Cups
18 Leagues
That's what we call history

[Anthony]

So I hear that Coutinho kid is pretty good.

[kyhadley]

You sound like a Yankee fan, clinging to past glory most of which you haven't even experienced because the future is so bleak (that part is exclusive to Liverpool).

In my lifetime you haven't won shit.

[mgoblue2290]

Good for you. Enjoy your League cups and Europa leagues then. I want to be the best club in the world, not the best club in the premier league mid table.

Typically the best club in the world is judged on its ability to win trophies.

I get the argument of wanting to be in the CL and prioritizing that and all. I could understand your anger if you were playing basically any team in the top 10, but you were playing Southampton. Rafa was absolutely right in thinking the side he sent out could get the job done, all while saving some of the better players for today's match.

[mgoblue2290]

You sound like a Yankee fan, clinging to past glory most of which you haven't even experienced because the future is so bleak (that part is exclusive to Liverpool).

In my lifetime you haven't won shit.

So you're what then, 7? Are you forgetting the greatest comeback in the history of soccer? If you were born pre-2000 then we've won the FA Cup twice in your lifetime as well. Which contrary to the belief of fucking plastic fans, is actually a nice trophy to win. Same goes for Europa.

Our future is actually looking anything but bleak. We've had our bumps and bruises but we've got a pretty solid young core at the moment and on our day have looked capable of beating anyone in this league. We've still have some ways to go, but we're heading in the right direction.

[mgoblue2290]

So I hear that Coutinho kid is pretty good.

And to complete the trifecta of posts, yes he is looking very good and a nice bargain. I'm not the biggest Sturridge fan and I wouldn't mind seeing Coutinho play that CAM role behind Suarez. He's looked good on the left, but I think the CAM role might be in his future. Then again Hendo has also worked well in there some games, especially when his energy is needed.

[kyhadley]

Typically the best club in the world is judged on its ability to win Champions league and Domestic league* trophies.

I get the argument of wanting to be in the CL and prioritizing that and all. I could understand your anger if you were playing basically any team in the top 10, but you were playing Southampton. Rafa was absolutely right in thinking the side he sent out could get the job done, all while saving some of the better players for today's match.

Fixed that for you.

I didn't want him to save better players for this match! Why is that hard to get? I wanted at least one of Hazard/Cole/Mikel to start Saturday! I wanted to be more assured that we would get those three points! The last time Rafa made wholesale changes like Saturday's? A 1-0 loss to QPR on January 2nd.

I also think you are underestimating the motivation and ability of a well-rested, relegation-threatened side, at home no less.