0x's All Time 50!

[jeffx]

Good list, but my top ten would go like this;

Wilt
Jordan
Oscar
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem
Baylor
Moses

..and Len B, you're right on about Wilt.

 

[dell71]

I didn't say that Wilt wasn't a pioneer. In fact, I did say that. I was under the impression we are debating who is the most dominant though.

I didn't even say Wilt shouldn't be #2 either. I agree that Wilt should be in the top 5 players of all time easily, just because of how much of a pioneer he was. I quoted Messengers second post, not his first, because I agree as far as calling Wilt the most dominant big man is far fetched.

I just feel like there is a difference between being one of the greatest of all time, and being the most dominant big man.

This came up back when I did my Greatest Centers list. Here is the exchange I had with The Messenger.

I guess your lists don't into account the skill of players in their eras. Wilt would definitely not be number one, that would be either Kareem or Shaq.

Athletes are a constantly evolving species. We can say what Wilt would've or wouldn't have been if he played today (Shaq if he played back then) but we don't have any way of really knowing. All we have to go on is what they actually did. That's the reason I believe very heavily in comparing guys based on what they did against their peers. In that regard, Wilt Chamberlain is the most dominant center to ever play the game. I can't penalize him for being better than everyone he played against.

Wilt played against a bunch of white guys who averaged 6'6" at the center position. If someone had Amare Stoudemire's skill today, they could do what Wilt did back then. Guys like Shaq, Olajuwon, David Robinson, and Ewing dominated the center position when that position was at its best in the history of the NBA.

This is the great mythical argument against Wilt. True, he was bigger than everyone he faced but not by nearly the margin everyone says. During his rookie season, there was no starting center in the NBA under 6'8" and all but 2 went 6'9" or taller. And they weren't all white. When his last season rolled around, the league had doubled in size over the course of his career and most teams ran out a center who stood 6'10" or better and Wilt was no longer the tallest player in the league. That distinction belonged to Kareem. Oh, and they were mostly black. Despite the increasing size and ethnicity of his opponents and his advancing age (36) he still led the league in field goal % at a still unheard of 73% and rebounding at 18.6 per game.

Let's not also forget, at 7'1" and 275 lbs. (in his prime, he was actually around 300 when he retired) Wilt is still bigger than just about every center in the game today. A few guys are taller but only Shaq matches him in height and width (and skill). Wilt was no joke athletically, either. He was no big lumbering hulk. As a track athlete he competed in the high-jump, broad jump, shot put, ran the 440 and 880 and played pro-volleyball AFTER he retired from the NBA. I love Stoudemire and don't doubt he'd be a beast back then but saying Wilt could be no better than that now is insulting.

But, like I said we've no proof of either so I can only go on what he actually did which was dominate the game like no other player ever had.

 

[The Messenger]

Thanked Len B cause I've never looked at it that way. Nice argument.

 

[jeffx]

I've got to say, I love Wilt's turning lay in. I would love to see more players do that today.

I wish more big men would use the hook. Kareem made it the deadliest shot in NBA history. It was a thing of beauty to watch.

 

[Big C-Dub]

I had this argument with someone a while back. Dumbest fucking argument ever.

Athleticism (height, weight, speed, strength) is one of the biggest factors when determining a player's quality. You cannot take away someone's athleticism just because they were ahead of the curve at the time. LeBron James is one of the fastest 6 foot 8 people you will ever see. He's ahead of the curve. Let's take away his athleticism just because he's more physically gifted than the rest of the NBA and see what player we have.

While we're at it, let's take Babe Ruth out of the "best baseball player of all time" list, and put Carlos Delgado ahead of Ruth. I mean, Ruth was beating up on white pitchers who didn't throw any junk pitches and couldn't hit 90 mph. Delgado hit over 300 homeruns vs. pitchers who could throw upwards to 100 mph and so much junk mixed in. Same exact argument, but it's amazing how stupid the argument sounds, doesn't it?

Wilt Chamberlain was ahead of the game -- that's not a penalty. Of course LeBron, Shaq or Dwight Howard could dominate back in the 1950's, but you're forgetting that they didn't exist in the 1950's. Shaq and Dwight Howard's body composition was built over time through evolution and the help of things such as personal trainers, fitness discoveries, health discoveries, basketball gaming strategy, etc. If you were physically more dominant than 99.99% of people in the world at the time, you are an athletic specimen.

Wilt is easily the second best player in the history of the NBA. Anyone who disagrees should just live in the modern era and not even pay attention to history.

Oh btw, Larry Bird wouldn't be nearly as good if he played now. Players today > historical players

Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddox, Roy Halladay, Tim Lincecum, Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, Dan Haren... yeah white pitchers suck

 

[Archer]

Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddox, Roy Halladay, Tim Lincecum, Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, Dan Haren... yeah white pitchers suck

Yeah I know what you mean ... I remember Ruth beating up on all of the above back then . Oh wait..............

 

[Big C-Dub]

Yeah I know what you mean ... I remember Ruth beating up on all of the above back then . Oh wait..............

saying that someone beat up on white guys in baseball isn't the same as in basketball

 

[Archer]

saying that someone beat up on white guys in baseball isn't the same as in basketball

Saying the white pitchers he faced in his day are the same as todays modern pitchers is also retarded .

You named people decades after he retired . Everything progresses with time normally .

Naming 10 pitchers 60 years after Ruth retired made no sense at all .

 

[Big C-Dub]

All I was trying to say is that there is no point in specifying that he beat up on "white pitchers". it's not like every black pitcher back then was Satchel Paige.