2014 WON Hall of Fame ballot

[Senser81]

He works at the UM School of Medicine as one of the lead researchers.

Is his research area "Awesome Wrestling Promos"?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Real quick...how does voting really work here?

Do you essentially get ten picks in total (max), over however many categories you want to vote?

Warner, you abstain from some categories, right? Do you fall short of your 10 total or...?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Real quick...how does voting really work here?

Do you essentially get ten picks in total (max), over however many categories you want to vote?

Warner, you abstain from some categories, right? Do you fall short of your 10 total or...?

Yes, I abstain from everything except for US/Canada & Japan. I *might* add the Australia/Caribbean/Africa/etc category this year, because I want to vote for Colon, but only if I finish my research of a few of the other people in the category first.

First, you choose the categories you're voting in. Then, you can vote for up to ten from across those categories, You can vote for anywhere from zero to ten, there is no minimum. You can vote in every category if you like. I think one of the major problems is people not staying in their lane, and voting in categories they aren't knowledgeable in. For example, I would probably vote for many of the Mexican candidates, but I'm hardy a lucha expert so I just stay out of it. If you abstain, you don;t drag down the percentages of the guys you don't vote for. That's why I didn't vote for Colon last year and abstained. I didn't think it was fair to drag down the Mario Milano's & Mark Lewin's when I admittedly dont know nearly enough about those guys to intelligently vote for or against.

You can then vote for up to five from the non-wrestler category. So your ballot can have up to 15 names.

Last year I didn't vote for the full ten, I went very conservative the first time out. I did use all five non wrestler spots. One got in (Matsunaga), so I have a spot open. Will probably use for Okerlund.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

This is like reading a Baseball Hall of Fame ballot..."I changed my mind and will vote for Hank Aaron this year. Will consider George Brett. Maybe Brooks Robinson, too, if I see good research of him as a clutch hitter."

Okerlund - In
Monsoon - In
Ventura - In deeper than an Alabama tick

The problem, is you only get five votes for the non wrestler category, and every single one of those guys (except Matysik) probably belongs.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Yes, I abstain from everything except for US/Canada & Japan. I *might* add the Australia/Caribbean/Africa/etc category this year, because I want to vote for Colon, but only if I finish my research of a few of the other people in the category first.

First, you choose the categories you're voting in. Then, you can vote for up to ten from across those categories, You can vote for anywhere from zero to ten, there is no minimum. You can vote in every category if you like. I think one of the major problems is people not staying in their lane, and voting in categories they aren't knowledgeable in. For example, I would probably vote for many of the Mexican candidates, but I'm hardy a lucha expert so I just stay out of it. If you abstain, you don;t drag down the percentages of the guys you don't vote for. That's why I didn't vote for Colon last year and abstained. I didn't think it was fair to drag down the Mario Milano's & Mark Lewin's when I admittedly dont know nearly enough about those guys to intelligently vote for or against.

You can then vote for up to five from the non-wrestler category. So your ballot can have up to 15 names.

Last year I didn't vote for the full ten, I went very conservative the first time out. I did use all five non wrestler spots. One got in (Matsunaga), so I have a spot open. Will probably use for Okerlund.

I'm trying to truly come up with a mock-up set of votes I'd have...my problem comes when I look at Mexico (a lot of these guys are in my wheelhouse of Lucha), and I realize that region could eat up some of my 10 votes.

I wouldn't normally vote Mexico...but when I see Ultimo Guerrero and Los Misioneros there, I can't help but give them a vote, because they do belong even if I'm not giving Karloff Lagarde a fair shake.

In regards to your Colon issue, I mean, what is worth more...making sure Colon gets in or giving Jan Wilkins a fair shake? IMO, it'd be making sure Colon gets in, but thats just a non-voters opinion. If anything, perhaps giving the guys who are "close" in that category an honest look while giving those guys in that 20% range less of a look.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Well, if Ultimo Guerrero wasn't a shoe-in before...

In what in many ways was the single most historically significant moment at a wrestling show of the year, Atlantis defeated Ultimo Guerrero in their mask vs. mask match, drawing what was reported to be the largest gate ever for Lucha Libre.

More than 17,000 fans, a standing room only crowd, paid in excess of $1 million, for CMLL’s 81st anniversary show at Arena Mexico in Mexico City. In doing so, CMLL has become only the second promotion ever to run in the North, South or Central America (WWE obviously being the other) to ever draw a $1 million gate. WCW fell short of that figure even for its biggest stadium shows in 1998.

Reports were that the most expensive seats were filled with older and more affluent fans who came back for nostalgia purposes to see what is likely the end of an era. Atlantis’ mask is considered among the most valuable in history and he’s been a headliner for the promotion for more than 30 years. He headlined the biggest show of the year for the first time on September 23, 1984, when he sold the arena out, defeating Talisman in a mask vs. mask match. His mask was also at stake as the key drawing point on Anniversary shows in 1989, 1993, 2010 and 2013.

The gate record broke the previous mark of $900,000, set at the 80th anniversary show on September 13, 2013. While the final match was La Sombra vs. Volador Jr. in a mask vs. mask match, it was Atlantis and Ultimo Guerrero who drew the house. The entire year was built up toward their mask vs. mask match, but at the anniversary show, it was announced there would be a tag match where the rivals, Atlantis & Guerrero and Sombra & Volador Jr., would meet in a tag match, with the winners being put in the main event with the mask at stake. Everyone came to see Atlantis vs. Guerrero. And even though Sombra vs. Volador Jr., ended up being one of the most spectacular high flying matches you’ll ever see, the older crowd hated it, booing it and chanting “fraud,” because it was not what they came to see.

Obviously the promotion knew it had one match that it could charge high ticket prices for and set a record with, so they worked out a way to get two gates in successive years out of it. This year, fans were told, over and over, that it was a singles match and somebody was losing their mask.

There were more people in the building than last year, even though it was raining heavily the afternoon and evening of the show. Lots of the CMLL wrestlers who weren’t booked on the show, came anyway, because they wanted to see the main event.

The match also delivered...the post-match though...that was something else.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Match & post match ruled. Did you watch Cavernario vs Rey Cometa?

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Match & post match ruled. Did you watch Cavernario vs Rey Cometa?

Sure did.

I thought it was the best actual match on the show.

But the spectacle of Ultimo Guerrero v. Atlantis was something else. Big moment.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Here is the VOW HOF folder with all of our content. Articles, podcasts breaking down each region w/guest experts, candidate breakdowns or Akira Taue, CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, Yuji Nagata, a guest piece by ex-WWE creative team member Kevin Marshall, and more.

We're adding more audio (Japan, Historical U.S., mookie with STATS!) this week, along with more from Kevin Marshall, and more.

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/category/2014-wrestling-observer-hall-of-fame/

Here's the direct link to three hours of audio breaking down the US/Canada region (Sting, Punk, Warrior, Lesnar, Rock & Roll Express, Ken Patera, JYD, etc) with me, Rich, & Dylan "Waco" Hales: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/29/modern-uscanada-candidates-dylan-hales/

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

5 days left.

Locked in:
Wrestlers
1. Rock & Roll Express (U.S.)
2. Jun Akiyama (Japan)
3. Gran Hamada (Japan)
4. Carlos Colon (Aus./Car./Africa)
5. King Kong Czaja (Aus./Car./Africa)

Non Wrestlers
1. Jimmy Hart
2. Don Owen
3. Jerry Jarrett
4. Gene Okerlund
5. Jesse Ventura

Still mulling...
-JYD (U.S.)
-CM Punk (U.S.)
-Mike & Ben Sharpe (Japan)
-Minoru Suzuki (Japan)
-Akira Taue (Japan)


I'm voting Australia/Caribbean/Africa this year, because Colon should be in. This also gives me an excuse to vote for King Kong Czaja, who I am partly responsible for getting onto the ballot to begin with.

Using all 5 non-wrestler spots. Would use more if I could. Adding Okerlund & Ventura this year.

Was talked into Gran Hamada by Alan & Dylan. Unquestionable influence. Great worker. Drew in Mexico.

Akiyama is a HOF level worker, not a HOF level draw, but drew enough to add to his work resume.

Still mulling JYD's super hot run in Mid South as an incredible draw. That's really all he has.

I think Punk is ultimately a HOF, but so much of his argument is influence, and I might want to let that play out. I like him as a worker, but HOF level? Arguable. Not a HOF level draw, even with the merch factor. I do believe he kicked off the WWE indie signing boom and changed a lot of minds there, which is the crux of his argument to me.

Mike & Ben Sharpe were super instrumental as the first foreign heels in Japan and drew monster ratings vs Rikidozan. I don't know enough about the rest of their career to pull the trigger yet.

I would love to vote for Minoru Suzuki. I can't find a way to justify it. Talk me into it. God, is that guy fucking great. Just great.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Here is the VOW HOF folder with all of our content. Articles, podcasts breaking down each region w/guest experts, candidate breakdowns or Akira Taue, CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, Yuji Nagata, a guest piece by ex-WWE creative team member Kevin Marshall, and more.

We're adding more audio (Japan, Historical U.S., mookie with STATS!) this week, along with more from Kevin Marshall, and more.

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/category/2014-wrestling-observer-hall-of-fame/

Here's the direct link to three hours of audio breaking down the US/Canada region (Sting, Punk, Warrior, Lesnar, Rock & Roll Express, Ken Patera, JYD, etc) with me, Rich, & Dylan "Waco" Hales: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/29/modern-uscanada-candidates-dylan-hales/

Here is the Japan region podcast with Alan Counihan (Alan4L) http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/10/01/japan-candidates-alan-counihan/

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Big fan of JoeMLanza being ALL IN on King Kong Czaja but after listening to the first podcast...he doesn't even get his name right.

:dead:

CM Punk is a Hall of Fame level worker. If you don't think so :fuckoff:

Since his career began, no one was a bigger big match wrestler than Punk in North America (Tanahashi is the world's best "big match wrestler", IMO, FWIW). His top five matches are better than anyone else's five matches, including Danielson, who is a shoe-in workrate candidate. I'd also say, he was the most consistent performer over his 8 year career the WWE had seen since Michaels. This is a guy that has taken JOHN CENA(!!) to a five-star classic. He has taken Cena to another ****3/4 performance ON A RAW. He got a Match of the Year Contender out of the fucking Undertaker who could barely move. His match against Lesnar, too, was a MotYC. This was in his last two years alone. I would wager from 2011-2013, no one in the WWE was a better worker, including Danielson, despite his Observer Awards based on rep. That, nevermind taking his work all of the way back to OVW where he was wrestling Brent Albright that was pushing for feud of the year based primarily on the work they were putting in in the ring as well as his strong work all of the way up the card with an array of different talents. The man got the best match out of Mark Henry in his career.

This is not even talking about his Indie run where he's got another five star classic under his belt as well a litany of matches that would qualify as four-stars or better against one of the most eclectic array of talents you'll see.

While he wasn't a pure Hall of Fame level draw, he drew a lot of money in both the WWE as well as on the Indy scene. I wouldn't say he "checks the box" but as I've always called him...a "mild draw" it does not hurt him and only adds to his case that he did draw money.

Influence is undeniable.

I really have no idea why you wouldn't vote for Punk unless its under the guise of 'well, we're going to let it play out'...but then again, I think if a guy is a Hall of Famer, why wait...and considering you aren't using all of your slots...ehhhhhhh...fucking vote him in. You voted for Tanahashi last year on the first ballot.

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I love Minoru Suzuki. Might be one of my favorite wrestlers of recent vintage. I'd love to hear a legit Hall of Fame case for him...I'd love to see him get in...I just don't know if he has a case outside of A) he can be really really fucking awesome whenever he wants and B) has the best theme music on planet earth. Does he get the Pancrase bump?

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Y U NO VOAT MEXICO?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I never vote Mexico. I'm a casual viewer at best and have gone through periods where I don't watch it at all. I prefer to stay in my lane.

If anybody in the "etcetera" region had a real chance besides Colon, i'd stay out of that too. As it is, I don't think my no votes are hurting anybody. If he gets in this year or ends up off the ballot, i'll abstain from that again.

Somebody on another board found a new 80,000+ gate for Czaja from a show in India. He's probably the best draw on the ballot even if some of it is inflated (likely). Since i'm voting for Colon, I might as well toss him a vote, if for nothing else to help him get over 10% so he stays on next year.