And we wonder why SABR types are so snarky ...

[Glenbino]

I never brought up Trout being a better run producer than Miggy.. :shifty:

I knew Miggy had a better batting average with runners in scoring position (that's all that stat is BTW it has nothing to do with how many runners score) which is why I've never brought it up before. And LOL @ me making it up.. Just Google "batting average with runners in scoring position."

My gripe with the RBI is that unlike things like the slash line, hit totals and other base stats it is completely contingent on the performance of a player's teammates and lineup positioning rather than the individual performance of the player.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I never brought up Trout being a better run producer than Miggy.. :shifty:

I knew Miggy had a better batting average with runners in scoring position (that's all that stat is BTW it has nothing to do with how many runners score) which is why I've never brought it up before. And LOL @ me making it up.. Just Google "batting average with runners in scoring position."

My gripe with the RBI is that unlike things like the slash line, hit totals and other base stats it is completely contingent on the performance of a player's teammates and lineup positioning rather than the individual performance of the player.

BA w/RISP is not RISP%. This is where we are having a disconnect. RISP%, which I assumed you made up because I couldn't find it on FG or BR, is percentage of runners in scoring position driven in by the batter. We found it on MLB.com earlier in the chatbox when we were trying to figure out what the fuck you were talking about, because none of us had heard of it. Turns out you mistakenly used an acronym that actually does exist as an independent stat. Weird.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

My gripe with the RBI is that unlike things like the slash line, hit totals and other base stats it is completely contingent on the performance of a player's teammates and lineup positioning rather than the individual performance of the player.

The word "completely" is where we will never ever agree.

To me, the batter has just as much to do with his RBI total as his circumstances. There will always be extreme luck in either direction. We should be smart enough to spot it when it occurs. This is where old schoolers fail when they use the raw RBI number to compare.

 

[FedEx227]

I agree you can't say it's completely contingent and to be honest most of the SABR people won't say that. I just don't think it's a significant measure of a players worth. It certainly tells you something, it tells a story no doubt, it's just a terrible way to measure Player A vs. Player B.

 

[NAHSTE]

Third inning of Braves-Tigers highlights the silliness of RBI.

Top of the inning: Bases loaded, 1 out, Justin Upton hits a tailor made double-play ball to the shortstop, but Infante drops the ball on the transfer. RBI fielders choice for Upton.

Bottom of the inning: First and third, 1 out, Miguel Cabrera bounces one up the middle, Simmons is able to get to it but Uggla tries to barehand the toss and drops it. RBI single for Miggy. (Was clearly an error but the hometown scorer gave him a hit. Batting average, cool. But that's for another day.)

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Third inning of Braves-Tigers highlights the silliness of RBI.

Top of the inning: Bases loaded, 1 out, Justin Upton hits a tailor made double-play ball to the shortstop, but Infante drops the ball on the transfer. RBI fielders choice for Upton.

Bottom of the inning: First and third, 1 out, Miguel Cabrera bounces one up the middle, Simmons is able to get to it but Uggla tries to barehand the toss and drops it. RBI single for Miggy. (Was clearly an error but the hometown scorer gave him a hit. Batting average, cool. But that's for another day.)

What an intolerable, annoying post.

DISREGARD ALL STATS, WEIRD STUFF HAPPENS SOMETIMES

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Third inning of Braves-Tigers highlights the silliness of RBI.

Top of the inning: Bases loaded, 1 out, Justin Upton hits a tailor made double-play ball to the shortstop, but Infante drops the ball on the transfer. RBI fielders choice for Upton.

Bottom of the inning: First and third, 1 out, Miguel Cabrera bounces one up the middle, Simmons is able to get to it but Uggla tries to barehand the toss and drops it. RBI single for Miggy. (Was clearly an error but the hometown scorer gave him a hit. Batting average, cool. But that's for another day.)

Also, you have misguided annoyances.

-"You cant assume a double play" never made sense to me, since you can "assume" other defensive plays. Those types of plays above should be errors, not fielder's choices.

-A batter should get credit for an RBI on a double play. Same for an error. Or any other batted ball that leads directly to a run. The stat isn't 'run batted in when you do something good', its run batted in.

 

[Villain]

We can all agree that bullpen wins and losses are COMPLETELY stupid, though.... right?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Do you know why Justin Upton has 18 RBI?

Because he's mashing the ball and has 12 fucking HR's.

18 is a GREAT RBI total, people! He's on pace for almost 130 or something.

SOLO HR'S ARE GOOD. A 12 HR to 18 RBI ratio is a little wacky, but not really. It's early in the season, and 18 RBI is really good for April 27. When you hit lots of homers, you tend to have a lot of RBI. Upton is hitting lots of homers, and has a lot of RBI. So what is the problem, here?

 

[Villain]

Anthony Rizzo also has 18 RBIs to go along with his 17 hits for a .200 batting average.

 

[Glenbino]

Anthony Rizzo also has 18 RBIs to go along with his 17 hits for a .200 batting average.

Yeah but those 17 hits were obviously super clutch. This cannot be discounted!

 

[Villain]

Yeah but those 17 hits were obviously super clutch. This cannot be discounted!

8 home runs, 2 doubles. He's slugging over .500 :kanye:

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Yeah but those 17 hits were obviously super clutch. This cannot be discounted!

Maybe they were? Just because "clutch" may not be a repeatable skill, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

But even if they weren't, instead of being smart and analyzing things to put them into context, let's disregard a stat completely, just because of the occasional anomaly. That makes sense.

 

[Glenbino]

Maybe they were? Just because "clutch" may not be a repeatable skill, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

But even if they weren't, instead of being smart and analyzing things to put them into context, let's disregard a stat completely, just because of the occasional anomaly. That makes sense.

Except there are already statistical categories for his doubles and homers. The fact that his teammates were able to get on base and score doesn't make one HR more valuable than the other and tells us nothing about the performance of the individual the stat is attributed to that we couldn't have ascertained from the HR and 2B stats themselves.

RBI is fine as a team stat but it's redundant and pointless on the individual level.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Except there are already statistical categories for his doubles and homers. The fact that his teammates were able to get on base and score doesn't make one HR more valuable than the other and tells us nothing about the performance of the individual the stat is attributed to that we couldn't have ascertained from the HR and 2B stats themselves.

RBI is fine as a team stat but it's redundant and pointless on the individual level.

Don't be silly. Of course a three run homer is more valuable that a solo homer. If I hit 30 three run homers, and you hit 30 solo homers, sorry pal, but my 30 homers were more valuable. Did luck play a part in making them more valuable? Yup. But that's too bad. Life isn't fair, fella. And neither are goofy baseball stats.

No single stat tells a complete story. RBI certainly doesn't. Look, I don't love RBI. All i'm saying, is that the idea that they mean zilch and are to be disregarded is just as stupid as using them alone to compare or evaluate. Like any raw counting number, when combined with other numbers, they help tell a story.

 

[SuperKevin]

I never understood the RBIs are worthless argument. Last I checked you needed to score runs to win baseball games.

Then again I'm just a casual baseball fan

 

[Glenbino]

I never understood the RBIs are worthless argument. Last I checked you needed to score runs to win baseball games.

Then again I'm just a casual baseball fan

Yes driving in runs is an important team accomplishment.. But your teammates being on base when you hit the ball isn't exactly an individual accomplishment as every other offensive stat on the back of a baseball card is.

 

[Villain]

Yes driving in runs is an important team accomplishment.. But your teammates being on base when you hit the ball isn't exactly an individual accomplishment as every other offensive stat on the back of a baseball card is.

Yeah like bullpen wins.

Seriously fuck that stat.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Two batters, same team.

Batter A goes 2-4, with 2 solo HR's, and 2 K's with the bases loaded. The HR's came with the score 10-3 & 11-3. The K's come when his team is trailing.

Batter B goes 2-4, with 2 grand slams, and 2 K's with the bases empty. The first home run came with the team down 3-0, and the second home run came with the score 4-3. The K's come when the game is already well in hand.

People like glen and dorks like Keith Law call this game equal. Normal people know that player B had a far superior game.

 

[Goober]

The average Slateman post>this thread.