Better player: Mike Schmidt vs Jeff Bagwell

[FirstTimer]

Who ya got?

 

[Villain]

 

[Rudi]

Mike Schmidt.

 

[EmpireWF]

Schmidt had 1 more year of very good production compared to Bagwell, so he'll get the nod.

And yes, I voted for Schmidt before looking up their stats based strictly on name value.

 

[NAHSTE]

Schmidt had 1 more year of very good production compared to Bagwell, so he'll get the nod.

I typically give the nod to the guy who was better at his peak, but yeah Bagwell did have a relatively abbreviated career. If others choose to value longevity more and hold that against him, so be it.

And yes, I voted for Schmidt before looking up their stats based strictly on name value.

I suspect you won't be the only one. Bags was the better player across the board though.

Anyway, glad that this debate has spilled over from the chatbox.

 

[Senser81]

Schmidt was the best fielder at a real position.

 

[FirstTimer]

We need dell to give us this table for these guys:

Category|Dawson|Beltran
Batting Avg|.281|.283
League Avg|.257|.266
Top 10 BA|3|0
Top 10 Hits|5|2
Avg HR|28|27
Top 10 HR (Avg HR champ)|5 (38)|2 (51)
Avg RBI|99|107
Top 10 RBI (Avg RBI champ)|5 (120)|3 (146)
Top 10 Extra-Base Hits|6|3
Avg Total Bases|308|310
Top 10 TB|7|2
Avg SB|27|30
Top 10 SB|3|5
Top 10 SLG|6|1|
Top 10 OBP|0|0
Top 10 OPS|4|1
Top 10 OPS+|3|1
Top 10 PWR-SPD#|8|8
Rookie of the Year|1|1
MVP|1|0
Top 10 MVP Voting|4|2
Gold Gloves|7|3
All-Star Games|4|5
Silver Slugger Awards|4|2

 

[NAHSTE]

Schmidt was the best fielder at a real position.

Was Schmidt a good defender? I have no idea, never got to see him, so I'm asking sincerely. Obviously he won some gold gloves, but that's not much of an indicator.

 

[FirstTimer]

Was Schmidt a good defender? I have no idea, never got to see him, so I'm asking sincerely. Obviously he won some gold gloves, but that's not much of an indicator.

According to dWAR(which I hate anyways)Schmidt was in the Top 10(8) times. Never lead the league though. Bagwell never was and was actually a negative defensive player by WAR standards for his career.

Schmidt also lead the league in some other defensive metrics Range Factor, TZR, etc. Bagwell never did. I take defensive metrics with a grain of salt 99% of the time..but I think here given Schmidts defensive rep where there is smoke there is fire.

This is all per baseballref.

 

[FirstTimer]

 

[nwfisch]

Bagwell>Schmidt.

1 Rookie of the year compared to 0. :beachy:

 

[FedEx227]

Player A: .297/.408/.540, 34 HR, 115 RBI, 149 OPS+, 76.7 WAR (5.1 WAR/season)

Player B: .267/.380/.527, 37 HR, 107 RBI, 147 OPS+, 103 WAR (5.7 WAR/season)

Pretty even. I'd probably take Player B because of the presumed better defense you get in WAR, but the added OPS of Player A is nice. Pretty dead even to be honest.

 

[FirstTimer]

Player A: .297/.408/.540, 34 HR, 115 RBI, 149 OPS+, 76.7 WAR (5.1 WAR/season)

Player B: .267/.380/.527, 37 HR, 107 RBI, 147 OPS+, 103 WAR (5.7 WAR/season)

Pretty even. I'd probably take Player B because of the presumed better defense you get in WAR, but the added OPS of Player A is nice. Pretty dead even to be honest.

RBI's being in the line renders your entire analysis moot.





:troll:


You mentioned in the chatbox we have better stats to compare relative to era.

What are they IYO?

OPS+ is likely one of them...other than that?

 

[FedEx227]

Wins Above Replacement, Runs Above Replacement, OPS+ and for the most part unless we're comparing 1930 and 2010, you can use on-base percentage and slugging. People had pretty much figured out by the 70s and 80s that getting on base and hitting more than singles was a good thing.

 

[FirstTimer]

Wins Above Replacement, Runs Above Replacement, OPS+ and for the most part unless we're comparing 1930 and 2010, you can use on-base percentage and slugging. People had pretty much figured out by the 70s and 80s that getting on base and hitting more than singles was a good thing.

Schmidt wins both of those(aside from OPS+) :smug:

 

[FedEx227]

You'll remember I've never said Bagwell was better than Schmidt.

 

[NAHSTE]

I can only imagine how much more impressive Bagwell's career would look if his best season wasn't cut short by to the strike.

.368/.451/.750 with 39 HR, 116 RBI, 106 R and 15 SB ... through 110 games! Holy fuck...

That is what I mean by peak value ... That is one of the greatest statistical seasons of all-time, and it wasn't even a full year.

 

[Senser81]

Player A: .297/.408/.540, 34 HR, 115 RBI, 149 OPS+, 76.7 WAR (5.1 WAR/season)

Player B: .267/.380/.527, 37 HR, 107 RBI, 147 OPS+, 103 WAR (5.7 WAR/season)

Pretty even. I'd probably take Player B because of the presumed better defense you get in WAR, but the added OPS of Player A is nice. Pretty dead even to be honest.

Pretty lame analysis. One guy played 1B, the other played 3B. Even if the 1B is the Keith Hernandez of fielding and the 3B is merely adequate, thats a significant difference between the two players. Do you compare Cam Newton's rushing stats to Deshaun Foster's and say they are even?

 

[nwfisch]

I can only imagine how much more impressive Bagwell's career would look if his best season wasn't cut short by to the strike.

.368/.451/.750 with 39 HR, 116 RBI, 106 R and 15 SB ... through 110 games! Holy fuck...

That is what I mean by peak value ... That is one of the greatest statistical seasons of all-time, and it wasn't even a full year.

Those are amazing stats through a season, but there also is a great chance the last ~50 games likely consisted of a slump that brought Bags stats to his averages.

 

[FirstTimer]

I can only imagine how much more impressive Bagwell's career would look if his best season wasn't cut short by to the strike.

.368/.451/.750 with 39 HR, 116 RBI, 106 R and 15 SB ... through 110 games! Holy fuck...

That is what I mean by peak value ... That is one of the greatest statistical seasons of all-time, and it wasn't even a full year.

According to WAR Schmidt had three seasons better than Bagwell's "peak" season.

OPS+ gives the peak season advantage to Bagwell

RAA to Schmidt.

2 of 3 FTW