Bret vs Owen

[Warner2BruceTD]

Gabe Sapolsky ‏@BookItGabe
I'll watch Owen Hart matches any day of the week over Bret Hart matches
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Interesting tweet by Gabe. I think this is a great thread topic, so let's dig into this.

I think Bret's stuff was more formulaic, but he had a much better connection with the crowd.

Owen's New Japan run was phenomenal. I also loved his heel work in between the Bret feud, and before the "I AM NOT A NUGGET"/Double J team era. It was during that time that Owen showed he could work that methodical heel style, and he did it very well. If you go back and watch that stuff, he eliminated all of his flippy shit and completely changed his style, which is something not enough guys do when they turn heel and vice versa (looking at you, John Morrison!).

Bret made his matches feel like a fight. Very underrated as a brawler. Loved the realism he brought to the table, something Owen could not match. Like I noted earlier, Bret could be a bit formulaic (reverse atomic drop, second rope elbow drop, etc), but for some reason it was not as obvious as Flair, who is Flair and I love Flair, but Flair was lazy towards the end (but who gives a fuck, he's Flair and he earned the right).

My favorite Bret spot was the turnbuckle bump that he would take to the chest. It was so unique, because everybody else took that bump to the back, and it makes no sense when you think about it. Bret would get whipped in, and hit that fucker chest first with good impact. Awesome.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If you don't like this match, you shouldn't watch wrestling.

One of the greatest matches of all time in my view, when you take into account the story, the booking, the work, the fact it was at WrestleMania, and everything else. As close to perfect as you can get. This one is five stars from me.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/54Wz-osxDDI?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[EmpireWF]

Thought this was gonna be about their matches...never really compared the two with much thought.

One of my biggest knocks against Owen, and probably more as a tag team guy towards the end of his run with Bulldog.....he did plenty of stuff just to make Bulldog laugh (I'm sure of it). Seems more in line with stories about the guy as a ribber in and out of the ring. From people who knew the entire family, they'd usually say Owen was the best worker of them all (I vaguely recall Jericho mentioning it in one of his books....been a long ass time since I read Bret's).

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I could watch anything with Bret & Owen in the ring for days. My 3 all-time favorite matches (today, at least)....Bret/Owen from WM, Marufuji/Kenta from 10/2006 and Danielson/KENTA from 9/2006.

Even when they would work together (they didn't do it nearly enough since Bret was already an established top singles guy by the time Owen broke loose), I still think of a tag they had with the Steiners in 1994 (taped for Coliseum Video somewhere) that was fucking awesome. Tag team wrestling at its finest. Whenever they had matches against each other, they were always snug and looked as smooth as could be for all the obvious reasons.

What I loved about Bret, you touched on it....he made practically everything that happened in the ring look real. Even when he turned, he could sell like a mf'er. Not that bouncy Shawn Michaels kind of bumping, either....just the kind where it looked like this fucking guy was getting his ass kicked right before he would make his comeback (granted, most of his career, Bret was working with gigantic guys, but even when he worked average looking guys....like 1-2-3 Kid for example). There was no corny stuff (for the most part) like Flair had with the top rope shtick or Hogan with his hulking up, Undertaker with his sit-ups (sometimes those are corny, sometimes they're awesome), etc.

Also, I caught next to nothing of Owen's Japan run before WWF. A little bit of his original Blue Blazer time and then the stuff from 92ish onward.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Also, I caught next to nothing of Owen's Japan run before WWF. A little bit of his original Blue Blazer time and then the stuff from 92ish onward.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_md33CpkXJA?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Start with that, and also check out any of the Owen vs Liger matches.

 

[whuteva]

I liked Owen's run as the Blue Blazer

 

[BigBiss]

I liked Owen's run as the Blue Blazer

not sure if serous

 

[s@ppisgod]

I still think the Hart vs. Hart feud is the greatest thing the WWE has ever done. Everything about it was perfect. The build, the booking, the timing, the matches, the chemistry, the ability, etc. It was all there. It was so built-in and so believable, but it was also very easy to follow. Granted, I'm only familiar with wrestling the last twenty years, but I've yet to see anything that has that level of perfection from start to finish.

But aside from my verbal fellatio of that feud, I can absolutely see why a guy like Gabe would prefer Owen's style/skill-set. But, for my money, Bret was better in the ring by the slightest of margins.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The thing about Owen too, was that it's said that he didn't even take wrestling all that seriously, and was frustrated with the business and always looking for a way out.

One of my favorite Owen stories, comes fron when he got jaded during the first Blue Blazer run, seeing the writing on the wall and realizing his WWF career was obviously going nowhere with that gimmick. The night he decided to quit and go back to Japan, Ultimate Warrior, who was on the verge of a mega push but was completely oblivious to that fact, decided he was mad too and was going to quit and go with him. Owen was like, umm, I think you should probably stay.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Awesome thread is awesome.

Firstly...Owen Hart v. Bret Hart @ WrestleMania is legitimately a 5-star match and should be considered as such by anyone that watches wrestling. If you don't think so, I can dismiss every other opinion you have on the subject. With that said...the best part of the match is Owen Hart's ring entrance. Yelling out "I'M THE BEST!!!" is so fantastic. My buddies and I did that in college every time we saw each other. Pointing to ourselves and yelling out "I'M THE BEST!!!"...gold!

Secondly...W2B makes a great point, in that, Bret's matches were scripted and executed as such to resemble as closely as you could, to a pro wrestling fight. I'm a mark for wrestlers that make their matches look as authentic as possible. It is why I am such a mark for Randy Savage. Savage was a bit more simplistic in his offense than Bret, but Bret really could incorporate a technical pro wrestling style and pull it off as an authentic fight with the very best.

I think Bret, at his best, is better than Owen. Bret just had a way of bringing out the very best in his opponents at the highest levels.

However, Owen...infinitely a better character, better promo man, better story teller in and out of the ring, infinitely a better heel, and could work just as well as Bret.

The only thing that really separates the two is Bret's realism in his finished product and his highs when looking at a matchography. He just had performer after performer give their best efforts in the biggest stages and ultimately, one of their best products. He made so many guys look good at the highest levels. In that regard, he's a lot like Mick Foley in that, he was just such a great guy you want guys to go against...he makes everyone look better. Owen did, too...just wasn't given the ball at the highest level.

 

[FedEx227]

PODCAST ABOUT THIS TOPIC!?

 

[FedEx227]

Regarding this topic, I would say Bret is the better overall worker. Owen from a purely athletic, in-ring aspect is likely better. His style was almost ahead of its time in America, it was great high flying and had he been around in the 2000s could've easily found good pushes as the WWE went towards a more high flying style in it's undercard.

Bret was extremely formulaic, his matches are largely similar, but as a main eventer he told better stories in the ring. His matches all felt and looked geniune, they all made sense, he sold body parts well and really was the better main eventer.

I can see why Gabe prefers Owen, that's his style. Hell, if given a choice I'd probably rather watch Owen over time but in the context of watching PPVs or watching full shows Hart was a great main eventer and capped off shows and big programs.

 

[FedEx227]

I still think the Hart vs. Hart feud is the greatest thing the WWE has ever done. Everything about it was perfect. The build, the booking, the timing, the matches, the chemistry, the ability, etc. It was all there. It was so built-in and so believable, but it was also very easy to follow. Granted, I'm only familiar with wrestling the last twenty years, but I've yet to see anything that has that level of perfection from start to finish.

But aside from my verbal fellatio of that feud, I can absolutely see why a guy like Gabe would prefer Owen's style/skill-set. But, for my money, Bret was better in the ring by the slightest of margins.

Other than some of those Texas turns or the Savage/Hogan build, nothing has been able to touch this feud IMO.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

The build for Savage/Hogan was great, but without this...

it doesn't quite get over...that build up was dragged to epicness by Savage. Just look at the work by Hogan in that promo...Hogan, who is an elite guy on the stick, doesn't get that feud over in the way it was...it was all Savage and that was the penultimate moment of it.

Also, big props to Vince, The Body, and Gene Okurlund...back then, the "voices" of wrestling actually put over storylines moreso than the actual wrestlers. Hogan basically just acting like his hokey self throughout most of the build...it was basically Savage's slow degradation and the announce team putting over the intricacies of Savage's growing distrust for Hogan and the story moreover the three performers doing anything in particular.

The WWE lost its way with that, IMO. Once they went away from the elite heel color commentators like The Body and The Brain, announcing has never quite been the same. Vince was always good, but he never had that one guy next to him to get the heel's thought process on broadcast. Jim Ross was always great, but Lawler is awful. The Michael Cole / Jerry Lawler dynamic is the pits and no one gets over on commentary. The PbP guy has always been able to get the face over...the color guy was supposed to force the heel agenda...that stopped many years ago and I am afraid its not coming back.

Anyway, I disgress...

Back to Owen and Bret...

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Love that last post.

 

[whuteva]

not sure if serous

not so serious. but i do believe Bret was slightly better than owen. bret's match with mr. perfect was f'ing awesome as were many of his tsg matches against the bulldogs. it's sad we didn't get to see more of owen, though. his match against stone cold was really good, outside of the whole broken neck thing and he actually carried ahmed johnson to some decent matches, despite ahmed breaking owen's nose.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Bret was extremely formulaic, his matches are largely similar, but as a main eventer he told better stories in the ring. His matches all felt and looked geniune, they all made sense, he sold body parts well and really was the better main eventer.

Good point about Bret's selling.

I can picture in my mind, towards the end of a match, Bret limping around the ring, a sweaty mess, breathing heavy & hunched over, looking like he just got jumped in a bar. He would slow everything down, like would happen in real life if you just got the shit kicked out of you. Too often you see a babyface take a massive beating, sell like they are dead, but then magically spring to life for the comeback, throwing flying dropkicks and fist pumping and jumping around. Not Bret. His comeback offense wasn't a thousand MPH. His best matches really were built like fights. Bryan Danielson in ROH was very similar in this regard with his bell to bell selling, and realistic comebacks.

I think Bret's babyface style was perfect for the main event. No nonsense, somebody who you can get behind because you know he can kick ass or will die trying, the way his matches were structured, his pacing, all of it. Even when he turned heel in 1997, he was still the same guy working the same style and was still a babyface everywhere but the United States (which is another GREAT storyline he was involved in, with MEGA heat and just perfectly executed all around).

Like larry said, Owen was better as a heel. Owen was bland babyface. His heel stuff was nothing short of fantastic. I can see where Vince had early reservations as to whether Owen could pull off the jealous little brother routine, because he never showed any personality as a face. But he was perfect. Just crazy enough to keep you on edge at first, but also sane enough to where you can kind of understand his gripe. His body language was so good. And once he turned, and dialed it up a notch, it was off the charts. he was cocky in a way that nobody has really duplicated since.

 

[s@ppisgod]

I think Bret was a better storyteller in the ring. And his work as a heel against America was pretty damn good. Owen's work as the thorn in Bret/Bulldog's side was better, but I think "infinitely" is a bit over-the-top.

It's a shame that Owen never got a run as a top heel. That was the only bad part about the Hart v. Hart feud. Owen was supposed to be legitimized by Bret as a top end heel, and they just didn't follow-up with him. Like, at all. To think he was doing that shitty Blue Blazer stuff after looking at his WM/KOTR/Summerslam/SurvivorSeries run is appalling.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Awesome playlist of Owen Hart in Japan here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/playlist/x27815_SenorLARIATO_owen-hart-in-japan/1#video=xsxqg4