Brushbacks and Knockdowns: The Greatest Baseball Debates of Two Centuries

[FirstTimer]

Warner just raged on the Larkin prediction...and no on Rolen in the HOF. Broke down too soon

 

[dell71]

Moving on to another chapter in the book, but I'll maintain the HoF theme.

Chapter 4 is entitled "Two Guys From Chicago or Why Ron Santo and Minnie Minoso Are the Two Best Players Not in the Hall of Fame."

Obviously, since that time Santo has been posthumously inducted, which leaves Minoso as the default best player not in the HoF based on the title of the chapter.

Of course, we're only talking about eligible players, so keep Ken Griffey Jr. and others not yet on the official ballot in your back pocket.

Also, for the sake of argument, let's reverse fields on the guys with seemingly the strongest connections to 'roids: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro. The reason being that even the guys in the BBWAA who aren't voting for them admit the on-field accomplishments of these guys would easily be enough. Sure, there may be some debate on Big Mac and Palmeiro, but let's keep them out of this one all the same.

I'm almost positive none of you will agree with Minoso as the top choice, but take a look at his numbers if you wish to confirm your thoughts on the matter:

Minnie Minoso

A baseball blogger posted an interesting list on the subject earlier this year based on a poll of people who frequent the site. They came up with an interesting #1. If nothing else, it's useful to make sure you're not forgetting someone before you spout off on the subject.

Baseball Past and Present, The 50 Best Baseball Players Not in the HoF

So, Minoso the top guy? If not, who? Is he even in your top 10?

Go.

 

[Senser81]

Moving on to another chapter in the book, but I'll maintain the HoF theme.

Chapter 4 is entitled "Two Guys From Chicago or Why Ron Santo and Minnie Minoso Are the Two Best Players Not in the Hall of Fame."

Obviously, since that time Santo has been posthumously inducted, which leaves Minoso as the default best player not in the HoF based on the title of the chapter.

Of course, we're only talking about eligible players, so keep Ken Griffey Jr. and others not yet on the official ballot in your back pocket.

Also, for the sake of argument, let's reverse fields on the guys with seemingly the strongest connections to 'roids: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro. The reason being that even the guys in the BBWAA who aren't voting for them admit the on-field accomplishments of these guys would easily be enough. Sure, there may be some debate on Big Mac and Palmeiro, but let's keep them out of this one all the same.

I'm almost positive none of you will agree with Minoso as the top choice, but take a look at his numbers if you wish to confirm your thoughts on the matter:

Minnie Minoso

A baseball blogger posted an interesting list on the subject earlier this year based on a poll of people who frequent the site. They came up with an interesting #1. If nothing else, it's useful to make sure you're not forgetting someone before you spout off on the subject.

Baseball Past and Present, The 50 Best Baseball Players Not in the HoF

So, Minoso the top guy? If not, who? Is he even in your top 10?

Go.

Aside from the Steroid guys and the Joe Jackson/Pete Rose things, I think the baseball HOF does a good job with its selections. Guys who I used to complain about not being in (Santo, Blyleven, Barry Larkin, Gossage) did eventually make it in.

I think its hard to have a top 10 list, because there are two types of guys not in the HOF...great players without longevity (Mattingly, Gooden, Grich), and longevity players without greatness (Raines, Lofton, Darrell Evans). I don't think its really a stretch to have Minoso amongst those players.

My top choice would be Biggio, then maybe Walker...but really there isn't many more.

 

[EmpireWF]

Piazza is the poster boy for the BBWoA HOF discussion about eligible guys not in.

But hey, plenty of obvious HOFers over the decades were not 1st ballot guys so the pencil neck geeks can feel like they're keeping the HOF on its toes.

 

[Goober]

Piazza is the poster boy for the BBWoA HOF discussion about eligible guys not in.

But hey, plenty of obvious HOFers over the decades were not 1st ballot guys so the pencil neck geeks can feel like they're keeping the HOF on its toes.

:homer:

Posterboy? Maybe in Queens. I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy, let alone the top guy on the list who needs to get in.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

:homer:

Posterboy? Maybe in Queens. I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy, let alone the top guy on the list who needs to get in.

I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy

I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy

I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy

I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy


I don't even....

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Off the top of my head, i'm most annoyed that Biggio, Walker, and Dick Allen aren't in the Hall.

Non steroid guys, of course

 

[FirstTimer]

:homer:

Posterboy? Maybe in Queens. I'm borderline on Piazza even being HOF worthy, let alone the top guy on the list who needs to get in.

Wut?

Defend this bullshit

 

[Glenbino]

I think there are guys I would rather see go in ahead of him, but Piazza was easily the best hitting catcher of my lifetime and should be in the HoF without a doubt.

Apparently the Braun news hit Gooby hard enough to cause some early onset CTE symptoms.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

If you want to leave Piazza out, fine, but then you also have to concede that you believe there are about two or three Hall of Fame catchers total in your opinion. Bench is the only guy clearly better.

First in HR's, SLG, & OPS+, fourth in RBI, sixth in WAR, third in WAR7, fifth in JAWS, top ten in everything else across the board.

He's the only catcher to slug over .500 and has a 45 point lead on the guy in second. .308 lifetime hitter, .377 OBA, ROY, four top 5 MVP finishes, what is there not to like?

 

[dell71]

If you want to leave Piazza out, fine, but then you also have to concede that you believe there are about two or three Hall of Fame catchers total in your opinion. Bench is the only guy clearly better.

Some guy named Yogi has something to say about that.

Still, Piazza should definitely have been inducted last year.

 

[Senser81]

I assumed Piazza was already in the HOF. I would change my initial response and say that Piazza is the only guy who CLEARLY should be in the HOF. He was arguably the greatest hitter at his position. I think Bench and Berra were better catchers, but that doesn't make Piazza less deserving of Cooperstown.

 

[FedEx227]

If you don't let Piazza in you're essentially closing down the position ever getting into the Hall again. As Warner mentioned, he's easily the best offensive catcher of all time and likely won't be eclipsed anytime soon (mostly depending on Mauer's long term future at the position).

 

[dell71]

If you don't let Piazza in you're essentially closing down the position ever getting into the Hall again. As Warner mentioned, he's easily the best offensive catcher of all time and likely won't be eclipsed anytime soon (mostly depending on Mauer's long term future at the position).

I just can't see Mauer being a catcher for too much longer.

 

[dell71]

Surprised I haven't seen any love for Jeff Bagwell on this topic.

 

[Senser81]

Surprised I haven't seen any love for Jeff Bagwell on this topic.

I'm too uncertain about Bagwell's possible steroid use to take a stand on him either way.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Surprised I haven't seen any love for Jeff Bagwell on this topic.

I thought you wanted us to leave out anybody with reasonable steroid suspicions.

I think Bagwell is a borderline top five all time 1B. Also, while common sense tells me he used PED's, he's never been on any lists or been a part of any suspicions. I'd vote for him without a second thought.

 

[FedEx227]

This is where I really start to hate the steroid debate, can't see how you can leave Bagwell out when he never tested positive or was on any lists, pure speculation for him.

 

[Senser81]

This is where I really start to hate the steroid debate, can't see how you can leave Bagwell out when he never tested positive or was on any lists, pure speculation for him.

I think you have to vote all the steroid guys into the HOF if they have the stats. It would at least make the voting process simpler.

 

[FedEx227]

That's always been my stance. Now that we have testing guys that test positive are out, but I'm not going to hold the guys in the unregulated, unchecked 90s to the same level. Maybe 'roids were illegal but head was inserted into sand for a number of years.