Enough is enough. Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

there is no such thing as greatest of all time. There is only greatest/ or one of the greats of every 10 to 20 years.

right now Manning and Brady are right up there. Favre is the most recent -greatest of all time- for a 15 to 20 year period because he owns all he stats.

Superbowl rings and appearances are a team accomplishment. Not an individual accomplishment. so , I dont believe they affect whether an individual QB is /should be considered that good or better than another.

Montana was a great QB in the right place at the right time. the 49ers were a freakin all star organization from top to bottom at the time. But , as an individual talent he was no better, no worse than Elway, Marino etc.-

Favre is the Nolan Ryan of football...

 

[ram29jackson]

Defenses are built on stopping QBs. If a QB can perform in these big games the team usually wins.

"ultimate team sport" is a catch phrase not a fact. Noone on the "team" has a more clear and direct impact than a QB. This isnt Dilfer vs Brady. All the QBs we're discussing had teams built around them...they had the teams success hinge on them completing passes and not turning the ball over.

Being able to throw 40 tds during the regular season , and making the playoff means theres no excuse for under performing during the playoffs.
Defenses dont become nuclear powered in January. The biggest difference is that theres more pressure on guys to win there individual matchups. For a QB hes the only player that before every snap has to account for all 11 guys. Hes the only guy that handles the ball every offensive play. His is the pressure that is increased the most.

History with few exceptions has shown who can rise and perform in those situations and who cant.

Marino notoriously flopped in playoff games against teams he did well against in the regular season. Never the less his body of work is so amazing you rarely see him excluded in any top QB list.
Montana was nearly flawless in big games. Youll never hear him excluded. At worst theres maybe 2-3 other names seperating them.

I dont think anyone getting slighted by mentioning superbowls...I mean you go from greatest of all time to what...#2 ...#4 ?
When you look at the guys squeezed ahead is it that big a difference ?

Playoffs and SBs make a difference no matter what announcers feed you.



I find it interesting that the 2 guys being harped as GOAT the last few weeks are arguably some of the last guys I want with the ball.

Montana , Elway Only guys Im willing to bet the rent money Im coming up on top.

Anyone up for a Elway v Montana MNF viewing ?

wrong- football IS the ultimate team sport. A QB can be as good as he thinks he is or wants to be. But if his center and blockers arent helping his cause, protecting him etc. The QB aint worth a damn.

 

[ram29jackson]

Favre is the Nolan Ryan of football...

thats definitely a unique sports history reference / comparison !

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

wrong- football IS the ultimate team sport. A QB can be as good as he thinks he is or wants to be. But if his center and blockers arent helping his cause, protecting him etc. The QB aint worth a damn.

You fail twice...

1.Ultimate team sports does not = every player is equal.

2. If your throwing for MVP like numbers and are in the talk for an all time great it usually means that Oline protected you. Unless youre trying to argue that Richmond Webb wasnt clutch and stopped protecting Danny in January.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Joe Montana went through a rough postseason stretch from 1985-1987, failing to produce a single TD pass against four INT's, and the 49ers went one-and-done all three years.

In '85, the defending champs lost to the Giants 17-3. Montana was a very pedestrian 26/47 with a pick.

In '86, Montana was nearly murdered by Jim Burt, in a game where the Giants rolled 49-3. Montana was 8/15 for 98 yards and 2 INT's before Burt almost ended his career.

In '87, the 49ers were upset by the Vikings at home, and Montana was a brutal 12/26, 109 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT.

That's a terrible stretch of postseason football, the likes of which would have people calling for his head and questioning whether he was "done" with all of the excessive media and over analyzing that goes on in this era.

The idea here, is that this mythical idea that Joe Cool was some unstoppable force come January, is rooted in selective memory and fairy tales. He had mediocre days, and downright awful days, just like everyone else.

EDIT: In a game I have no reccolection of, even though I was 18, despite the fact I was a child for the other three yet remember watching all of them, Montana shit the bed in the 1993 AFC Championship game against the Bills, going 9/23 for 125 yards and an INT.

 

[ram29jackson]

You fail twice...

1.Ultimate team sports does not = every player is equal.

2. If your throwing for MVP like numbers and are in the talk for an all time great it usually means that Oline protected you. Unless youre trying to argue that Richmond Webb wasnt clutch and stopped protecting Danny in January.

every player is not equal, but QBs dont know how to block 350 pound guys for crap haha.

I never said all 11 were equal but if the front 5 dont do their job the QB is in no great QB argument. You have to also include the defense didnt help the Dolphins cause and maybe even the coaches gameplan didnt help Danny either ie -team concept / sport

 

[JeremyHight]

Joe Montana went through a rough postseason stretch from 1985-1987, failing to produce a single TD pass against four INT's, and the 49ers went one-and-done all three years.

In '85, the defending champs lost to the Giants 17-3. Montana was a very pedestrian 26/47 with a pick.

In '86, Montana was nearly murdered by Jim Burt, in a game where the Giants rolled 49-3. Montana was 8/15 for 98 yards and 2 INT's before Burt almost ended his career.

In '87, the 49ers were upset by the Vikings at home, and Montana was a brutal 12/26, 109 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT.

That's a terrible stretch of postseason football, the likes of which would have people calling for his head and questioning whether he was "done" with all of the excessive media and over analyzing that goes on in this era.

The idea here, is that this mythical idea that Joe Cool was some unstoppable force come January, is rooted in selective memory and fairy tales. He had mediocre days, and downright awful days, just like everyone else.

EDIT: In a game I have no reccolection of, even though I was 18, despite the fact I was a child for the other three yet remember watching all of them, Montana shit the bed in the 1993 AFC Championship game against the Bills, going 9/23 for 125 yards and an INT.

And despite all of that, his post season numbers STILL blow Manning's out of the water.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

And despite all of that, his post season numbers STILL blow Manning's out of the water.

Depends on you definition of "blowing out of the water".

They have nearly identical completion percentages, and Montana's passer rating is 95 to Peyton's 85.

Montana has more rings, but Peyton's book isnt finished. He's still firmly entrenched in his prime.

Montana has better postseason numbers, but Manning has much better regular season numbers, plus his career is still going strong and he is adding to his overall legacy as we speak.

The best argument for Manning is that you can't imagine the Colts having a fraction of the success they have had without him. He has carried that team on his back on a level that can probably only be matched by 80's Elway. And unlike Elway, it's not because the Colts have lacked complimentary players, it's just that Manning is that damn good. The 49ers remained a powerhouse long after Montana left town.

Stats & facts aside, when I watch Peyton Manning play, there is no doubt in my mind he's a better player than Montana. And everyone else i've ever seen.

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

Joe Montana went through a rough postseason stretch from 1985-1987, failing to produce a single TD pass against four INT's, and the 49ers went one-and-done all three years.

In '85, the defending champs lost to the Giants 17-3. Montana was a very pedestrian 26/47 with a pick.

In '86, Montana was nearly murdered by Jim Burt, in a game where the Giants rolled 49-3. Montana was 8/15 for 98 yards and 2 INT's before Burt almost ended his career.

In '87, the 49ers were upset by the Vikings at home, and Montana was a brutal 12/26, 109 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT.

That's a terrible stretch of postseason football, the likes of which would have people calling for his head and questioning whether he was "done" with all of the excessive media and over analyzing that goes on in this era.

The idea here, is that this mythical idea that Joe Cool was some unstoppable force come January, is rooted in selective memory and fairy tales. He had mediocre days, and downright awful days, just like everyone else.

EDIT: In a game I have no reccolection of, even though I was 18, despite the fact I was a child for the other three yet remember watching all of them, Montana shit the bed in the 1993 AFC Championship game against the Bills, going 9/23 for 125 yards and an INT.

Hed won 2 superbowls before those mediocre stretches.
Those 85-86 Giants were also some of the best defenses of that era.
I dont hold it against someone to struggle against LT and company.

Some of the teams the Colts lost to were nowhere near that class.

But yes , he wasnt invincible.

every player is not equal, but QBs dont know how to block 350 pound guys for crap haha.

I never said all 11 were equal but if the front 5 dont do their job the QB is in no great QB argument. You have to also include the defense didnt help the Dolphins cause and maybe even the coaches gameplan didnt help Danny either ie -team concept / sport

So are you insinuating these QBs fell apart in the playoffs because the Oline and game plans were suddenly bad ? Not the QB play ?

Thats what seperates Elway from Marino. Marino lost games he should have won...Elway won games he should have lost.
Elway playoff losses came in the SB against clearly superior teams.
Marino , Manning lost games they were favored in or at least had equal talent in.

Again...4 SB wins for the niners..the only constant in them was Joe Montana. Thats not a coincidence.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I don't think Marino or Favre belong in this converstion, and that's not really meant as an insult, I just don't think either of them are at the Manning/Montana level.

 

[adembroski]

Depends on you definition of "blowing out of the water".

They have nearly identical completion percentages, and Montana's passer rating is 95 to Peyton's 85.

Montana has more rings, but Peyton's book isnt finished. He's still firmly entrenched in his prime.

Montana has better postseason numbers, but Manning has much better regular season numbers, plus his career is still going strong and he is adding to his overall legacy as we speak.

The best argument for Manning is that you can't imagine the Colts having a fraction of the success they have had without him. He has carried that team on his back on a level that can probably only be matched by 80's Elway. And unlike Elway, it's not because the Colts have lacked complimentary players, it's just that Manning is that damn good. The 49ers remained a powerhouse long after Montana left town.

Stats & facts aside, when I watch Peyton Manning play, there is no doubt in my mind he's a better player than Montana. And everyone else i've ever seen.

The 49ers were a powerhouse after Montana left town because they had a guy named Steve Young. If Tom Brady were Peyton Manning's backup, yes, I definitely could see the Colts having the same level of success.

Manning and Brady are not in Montana's league. Different world's, fuck different eras. There's no L.T. in the league today because L.T. would have been kicked out of the league. We've reached an era where not only are the defensive backs of the league less talented than they were in the '80s, they're also hamstrung by ridiculous rules and rule interpretations that make it damn near impossible to do their jobs.

I did see Montana play, and I still go back and watch his games whenever I have the chance. He made quarterbacking an art. Manning and Brady are amazing quarterbacks, don't get me wrong, but Montana might as well have played with 20 lb weights on each wrist and a ball and chain on his ankle the way the rules have changed to help those two.

 

[adembroski]

I don't think Marino or Favre belong in this converstion, and that's not really meant as an insult, I just don't think either of them are at the Manning/Montana level.

This I agree with you on. To me, there's 4 names in the conversation: Montana, Manning, Brady, and Unitas. Everyone else is fighting for 5th.

(Edit: I take part of that back... Staubach is 5th, the rest fight for 6th)

 

[MrBill]

I don't think Marino or Favre belong in this converstion, and that's not really meant as an insult, I just don't think either of them are at the Manning/Montana level.

This I agree with you on. To me, there's 4 names in the conversation: Montana, Manning, Brady, and Unitas. Everyone else is fighting for 5th.

(Edit: I take part of that back... Staubach is 5th, the rest fight for 6th)

You guys are right, breaking every record for QB play in fewer games than the guys you listed above who set them is a joke. Favre leading his team to the highest winning percentage in the league for the 17 years he was the starter for the Packers means jack squat.

I still think Joe Cool was the GOAT but to not even have Favre on the short list is redonkulous.

 

[Senser81]

Stop baiting me to get into a pissing contest with you about my intelligence, that is not what we're talking about here.

Its not a "pissing contest"...I am asking you a specific question about what you said. When you said ""It's preposterous to credit/discredit any player (especially a QB)...", what were you talking about? Why did you include "especially a QB"? That made zero sense.

You are a piece of work. Whenever anyone calls you out on the moronic bullshit you post, you refuse to address the topic and resort to trolling/namecalling. Notice how no one else is acknowledging your existence in this thread...they probably don't want to waste their time arguing with such a mental angry midget. Its amazing how everyone is trying to discuss the GOAT QB, and you are still stuck in the starting block with some absolutely retarded point that postseason games are meaningless.

Whats worse is that YOU ACTUALLY THINK YOU ARE INTELLIGENT. Newsflash...you aren't. Just accept it and move on.

However, as I outlined earlier, even arguing that when talking about Peyton Manning is a little suspect as he has only a small sample size of post-season games to go off of.

Right, because a sample size of 15 games is about an entire season, and whenever a player plays a season I'm still on the fence when it comes to judging their effectiveness. "Sure, Alex Smith threw 1 TD and 11 INTs last season, but the sample size was too small to make any judgment on his performance."

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

You guys are right, breaking every record for QB play in fewer games than the guys you listed above who set them is a joke. Favre leading his team to the highest winning percentage in the league for the 17 years he was the starter for the Packers means jack squat.

I still think Joe Cool was the GOAT but to not even have Favre on the short list is redonkulous.

This is why I dislike debating things like this, because you inevitably end up in a position of discrediting tremendous players.

I can talk up Manning all I want, but in order to justify telling people he's the best, I have to tear down Joe Fucking Montana & Brett Favre.

Brett Favre is better than 99.9% of the men who have played QB in the NFL, I just don't think he's better than Peyton Manning or Joe Montana. That sounds like an insult, or a backhanded compliment at best, but it's not.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

This I agree with you on. To me, there's 4 names in the conversation: Montana, Manning, Brady, and Unitas. Everyone else is fighting for 5th.

(Edit: I take part of that back... Staubach is 5th, the rest fight for 6th)

Your lack of Elway is...

disappointing.

 

[MrBill]

This is why I dislike debating things like this, because you inevitably end up in a position of discrediting tremendous players.

I can talk up Manning all I want, but in order to justify telling people he's the best, I have to tear down Joe Fucking Montana & Brett Favre.

Brett Favre is better than 99.9% of the men who have played QB in the NFL, I just don't think he's better than Peyton Manning or Joe Montana. That sounds like an insult, or a backhanded compliment at best, but it's not.

I hear where you are coming from. Montana is one of the guys that can easily be argued as the GOAT. Manning should be right there with him with another few years of production at his current level.

 

[Senser81]

You are absolutely ridiculous. I really have nothing else to say. This is not a validation of any of your points, it's just that your constant trolling and arbitrary statements and "loling" at my posts in an attempt to garner favor with the other posters is just way too much. You say "you're retarded" "moronic" and whatnot, yet instead of going through and showing how my logic about anything has been faulty or wrong, you latch on to one or two things and yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU HE WAS RETARDED!!".

I really don't know how anyone on this site deals with your sorry ass. I really don't

You have once again failed to address my questions about your "logic". I don't understand why you continue to post in this thread, because you are adding nothing to the discussion. Instead of trolling, how about responding to the content of my posting?

1) When you said ""It's preposterous to credit/discredit any player (especially a QB)...", what were you talking about? Why did you include "especially a QB"?

2) Why is 15 games considered "too small a sample size"?

For my part, I would much rather converse with you about football, but you give me nothing to go on. Look at any of your postings in this thread. Look at the post you just made....how am I supposed to respond? You have not one iota of "football discussion" in your post.

I would suggest that you take your ill-manners and "Look at me, I'm smart!" routine to the Locker Room, and leave the NFL/NCAA Discussion to the people who actually watch football and enjoy debating about it.

 

[shag773]

I'm guessing you guys are very young, because if you went throught the NFL era from 1981-1995 there would be no question that Joe Montana is the greatest quaterback of all time. Period, end of story, ship it. I have no issues with Manning personally. Truly a first ballot hall of famer, and one of the greats of this game. But he does have his place in the pecking order of all time quarterbacks, and it's 2 or 3 spots from the best. A 7-8 playoff record does not make you the GOAT, and the funny thing is Peyton would probably be the first one to tell you that.


P.S. How exactly can you tear down Joe Montana to make Peyton Manning look better?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm guessing you guys are very young, because if you went throught the NFL era from 1981-1995 there would be no question that Joe Montana is the greatest quaterback of all time. Period, end of story, ship it. I have no issues with Manning personally. Truly a first ballot hall of famer, and one of the greats of this game. But he does have his place in the pecking order of all time quarterbacks, and it's 2 or 3 spots from the best. A 7-8 playoff record does not make you the GOAT, and the funny thing is Peyton would probably be the first one to tell you that.

Very young is a relative term.

At any rate, coming from someone who watched Joe Montana break the Rams hearts on a consistant basis, I obviously appreciate his greatness more than most. With that said, i'll take Peyton.