Lin Offer Expected To Be Matched By Knicks

[Argath]

You thinking Lin is as valuable to a team as Goran Dragic is all I need to hear.

Well if we're going by "market value" as you are always so adamant to point out, how does Goran Dragic have a higher market value than Jeremy Lin? What has he done which justifies a 10 mill a year contract? Because he is an average PG? Honestly, why do you believe Goran Dragic should be a top 5 paid point guard in the league? Why would paying him 10 million a year be "market value" but paying Jeremy Lin 5 million a year be overpaying


I guess you are a toronto fan so you are used to overpaying for average-below average point guards.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Well if we're going by "market value" as you are always so adamant to point out, how does Goran Dragic have a higher market value than Jeremy Lin? What has he done which justifies a 10 mill a year contract? Because he is an average PG? Honestly, why do you believe Goran Dragic should be a top 5 paid point guard in the league? Why would paying him 10 million a year be "market value" but paying Jeremy Lin 5 million a year be overpaying


I guess you are a toronto fan so you are used to overpaying for average-below average point guards.

Heres the thing, if you think Goran Dragic is average then how can this discussion go any further? You are obviously not able to evaluate this dudes talent level and that is why you are underestimating his value on the open market in the NBA where nearly everyone is over-paid. Dragic has been showing his potential as a back-up for multiple years now, and finely with starters minutes last year played pretty fucking great. Lin broke down after a great near 2 month stretch. Forgive me for trusting one more long term than the other. Furthermore, If Lin turned down the 31 million 4 year offer sheet from Houston that is more than what Goran Dragic received from Phoenix. Jeremy Lin is not going to be netting 5 million annually anywhere, he may get a backloaded contract that pays him 5 million in his first year, or two, but thats pretty irrelevant because the total sum of the contract still remains.

And yes, that is the whole fucking point. I am used to overpaying for players, as should every fucking fan in the league be used to this by now. This is what you seem to have a difficult time grasping.

 

[Argath]

Heres the thing, if you think Goran Dragic is average then how can this discussion go any further? You are obviously not able to evaluate this dudes talent level and that is why you are underestimating his value on the open market in the NBA where nearly everyone is over-paid. If Lin turned down the 31 million 4 year offer sheet from Houston that is more than what Goran Dragic received from Phoenix. Jeremy Lin is not going to be netting 5 million annually anywhere, he may get a backloaded contract, but thats pretty irrelevant.

And yes, that is the whole fucking point. I am used to overpaying for players, as should every fucking fan in the league be used to this by now. This is what you seem to have a difficult time grasping.

What I have a difficult time grasping is why should Goran Dragic be a top 5 paid PG in the league right now? Goran Dragic is an average PG and I firmly stand by that statement. He shoots the ball well, makes good decision and is an all around above average offensive player. However, he is a well below average defender who lacks the athleticism many other starting PGs in the league have. In a league full of big, highly athletic PGs, he would get beat down on a night to night basis.

So once again, I ask you, what about his game makes him deserve a 10 million $$$ contract? Because he averaged 18 and 8 through the last 20 something games of the season? Is that not the same reason Jeremy Lin is gathering all this attention right now? How is Jeremy Lin being overpaid on an annual salary of 5 mill (Which you stated it was when the reports first came out) but Dragic deserves 10 mill?

I'm not arguing that nobody in the NBA is overpaid, and I realize that there are players who are. But your whole argument is basically everyone else is doing it so why not? I'm not saying every team should build through the draft either, FA is a key role to every title contender, what I am saying is why waste money on someone who you know won't play up to the level of his contract? Goran may add 5-10 wins to your season maybe, but does that kind of an impact justify making him a top 5 paid player at his position? He's not even a top10 player at his position, so why pay him like he's top 5? Hardly anyone other than die hard NBA fans has even heard of the guy, he doesn't sell jerseys like Jeremy Lin does, nor does he bring in an entire continent of potential fans.

That is the real reason teams want Jeremy Lin and concept which you are having a hard time grasping apparently. Teams don't want him for what he does on the court but rather the money they can make off of him off the court. It is a business after all.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

What I have a difficult time grasping is why should Goran Dragic be a top 5 paid PG in the league right now? Goran Dragic is an average PG and I firmly stand by that statement. He shoots the ball well, makes good decision and is an all around above average offensive player. However, he is a well below average defender who lacks the athleticism many other starting PGs in the league have. In a league full of big, highly athletic PGs, he would get beat down on a night to night basis.

So once again, I ask you, what about his game makes him deserve a 10 million $$$ contract? Because he averaged 18 and 8 through the last 20 something games of the season? Is that not the same reason Jeremy Lin is gathering all this attention right now? How is Jeremy Lin being overpaid on an annual salary of 5 mill (Which you stated it was when the reports first came out) but Dragic deserves 10 mill?

I'm not arguing that nobody in the NBA is overpaid, and I realize that there are players who are. But your whole argument is basically everyone else is doing it so why not? I'm not saying every team should build through the draft either, FA is a key role to every title contender, what I am saying is why waste money on someone who you know won't play up to the level of his contract? Goran may add 5-10 wins to your season maybe, but does that kind of an impact justify making him a top 5 paid player at his position? He's not even a top10 player at his position, so why pay him like he's top 5? Hardly anyone other than die hard NBA fans has even heard of the guy, he doesn't sell jerseys like Jeremy Lin does, nor does he bring in an entire continent of potential fans.

That is the real reason teams want Jeremy Lin and concept which you are having a hard time grasping apparently.Teams don't want him for he does on the court but rather the money they can make off of him off the court. It is a business after all.

Jeremy Lin is not going to get an annual salary of 5 million dollars ANYWHERE. Are you really this dense? Lol. I was of course jabbing Lin as I have consistently all year, and given the market of the league even Lin himself wont end up being that over-paid because that is THE MARKET OF THE LEAGUE (even tho I dont believe Lin is the same caliber of player that others in his pay range may be..) there are different elements to him that are appealing for marketing purposes.. but that goes to shit if hes doesnt play well. Noone cares about shitty Asians from Harvard just because they're Asians from Harvard.

10 million a season (which he didnt even receive) is not being paid as a top 5 point guard. So as many times as you say that its just not accurate. It may work out in the top 8-12 range of PGs, but given that he is a free agent at this point in time its not that off-base.. when the young crop of PGs contracts expire they are going to get the same kind of money if not more. John Wall included.. is he gonna be worth the max he receives? Obviously not.

And yes, my point is that if the MARKET VALUE for players is the MARKET VALUE for players then its not unheard of to continue to pay MARKET VALUE for players. That seems pretty simple to grasp. Especially for shitty teams, they dont have much choice but to over-pay to get players to come to their city.

But we ended up with value in Kyle Lowry with 12 million over 2 seasons. When his contract expires im sure hes going to want a nice fat 10 million dollar a year annual contract, if not more. And noone should be surprised by him receiving that.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

For the record... Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Baron Davis, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash (last year), Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd were all making over 10 million a year.. thats off the top off my head, I may be missing someone. And there is a bag of other dudes making around the same price range. Conley, Nelson, Felton, Harris, Andre Miller they're all around the same price range. So how is it so hard to grasp what the market value for these guys is? If you are underrating Goran Dragic then so be it, but thats on you bruh, not me.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

And what are guys like Ty Lawson, Step Curry, Jennings, John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Ricky Rubio gonna want when they get off their rookie contracts? Probably around the same price range if not more. MARKET VALUE.

 

[Argath]

Jeremy Lin is not going to get an annual salary of 5 million dollars ANYWHERE. Are you really this dense? Lol. I was of course jabbing Lin as I have consistently all year, and given the market of the league even Lin himself wont end up being that over-paid because that is THE MARKET OF THE LEAGUE (even tho I dont believe Lin is the same caliber of player that others in his pay range may be.. there are different elements to him that are appealing for marketing purposes.. but that goes to shit if hes doesnt play well. Noone cares about shitty Asians from Harvard just because they're Asians from Harvard.

10 million a season (which he didnt even receive) is not being paid as a top 5 point guard. So as many times as you say that its just not accurate. It may work out in the top 8-12 range of PGs, but given that he is a free agent at this point in time its not that off-base.. when the young crop of PGs contracts expire they are going to get the same kind of money if not more. John Wall included.. is he gonna be worth the max he receives? Obviously not.

And yes, my point is that if the MARKET VALUE for players is the MARKET VALUE for players then its not unheard of to continue to pay MARKET VALUE for players. That seems pretty simple to grasp. Especially for shitty teams, they dont have much choice but to over-pay to get players to come to their city.

But we ended up with value in Kyle Lowry with 12 million over 2 seasons. When his contract expires im sure hes going to want a nice fat 10 million dollar a year annual contract, if not more. And noone should be surprised by him receiving that.

That in there lies my entire point, yes you should be surprised by that. Why? Because only 5 Point Guards in the league make that much money right now as a base salary. Rondo doesn't even make that much in base salary right now. You're vastly overestimating the market value of PGs in the league right now. The average salary is not 10 mill a year after a rookie contract, in fact it's incredibly rare to see someone get paid that much. 10 mill a year is close to a max contract with the new CBA rules. I understand JLin is making more than 5 million a year, but he's bringing in that much revenue to a team so when a team looks at it, they're not spending 10 million a year they're spending 2 million or 3 million or however much revenue he brings in minus the amount of his contract. Whether you'd like to admit or not, winning is not the only focal point of NBA teams, especially now a days when the economy is down as well as profits from these teams. People aren't going out and buying Dragic jerseys but they are buying JLin jerseys.

Unless someone is an all around stud like drose, chris paul, tony parker, or a huge advertising piece like JLin, they're average salary is probably closer to the 5-7 mill a year range like what Dragic actually received in his contract from PHX. Will John Wall get a max contract? I don't doubt it. But that's because the Wizards are building a team around him, he is their franchise center piece. Just as KD is with the Thunder, DRose is with the Bulls, Joe Johnson was with the Hawks. Goran Dragic is not a franchise center piece hence he does not deserve that kind of money and paying that kind of money will be overpaying his "market value." Kyle Lowry makes 6 mill a year (probably not even that much base salary) yet started for 3/4 of the season over Dragic.

 

[Argath]

For the record... Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Baron Davis, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash (last year), Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd were all making over 10 million a year.. thats off the top off my head, I may be missing someone. And there is a bag of other dudes making around the same price range. Conley, Nelson, Felton, Harris, Andre Miller they're all around the same price range. So how is it so hard to grasp what the market value for these guys is? If you are underrating Goran Dragic then so be it, but thats on you bruh, not me.

Wrong, hardly any of these guys are making 10 mill a year base salary without incentives (which is what Dragic is reported to have wanted). They may make that with their playoff incentive, their performance incentive etc etc. In fact, in a league of 30 teams, there were around 50 players being paid 10+ million on an annual basis at the beginning of this past year out of every position. 50 players on 30 teams. That's not even 2 players per team. So Goran Dragic is worth being the top or 2nd to top paid player on a team? Instead of just guessing random numbers and going by the general (misinformed) consensus, look up some facts.

 

[BigBucs]

opcorn:

 

[Argath]

There were 4 players being paid 10+ million annually at the beginning of last season. They are..

1. Chris Paul $16,359,805
2. Deron Williams $16,359,805
3. Tony Parker $12,500,000
4. Steve Nash $11,689,062


Taken from.. http://www.hoopsworld.com/nbas-top-50-highest-paid-players

So you're saying Goran Dragic deserves a contract similar to Steve Nash and Tony Parker? Right...

Just quit being so fucking stubborn and admit you were wrong for once!

 

[Argath]

And what are guys like Ty Lawson, Step Curry, Jennings, John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Ricky Rubio gonna want when they get off their rookie contracts? Probably around the same price range if not more. MARKET VALUE.

All the names you listed are all their Franchises center piece which they are trying to build around (minus perhaps Rubio only because of Kevin Love and Steph Curry but I highly doubt he makes 10+ mill after his rookie contract alone). Goran Dragic, once again, is not a center piece.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

Wrong, hardly any of these guys are making 10 mill a year base salary without incentives (which is what Dragic is reported to have wanted). They may make that with their playoff incentive, their performance incentive etc etc. In fact, in a league of 30 teams, there were around 50 players being paid 10+ million on an annual basis at the beginning of this past year out of every position. 50 players on 30 teams. That's not even 2 players per team. So Goran Dragic is worth being the top or 2nd to top paid player on a team? Instead of just guessing random numbers and going by the general (misinformed) consensus, look up some facts.

Most if not all of those guys were to be paid 10 million last season or have signed extensions that will pay them that money next year. Maybe Jason Kidd was a little less. This post alone is proof of why you have no business even discussing this shit.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

There were 4 players being paid 10+ million annually at the beginning of last season. They are..

1. Chris Paul $16,359,805
2. Deron Williams $16,359,805
3. Tony Parker $12,500,000
4. Steve Nash $11,689,062


Taken from.. http://www.hoopsworld.com/nbas-top-50-highest-paid-players

So you're saying Goran Dragic deserves a contract similar to Steve Nash and Tony Parker? Right...

Just quit being so fucking stubborn and admit you were wrong for once!

Chauncey Billups 18 million dollar contract was amnestied.

Baron Davis' 14 million dollar contract was amnestied.

Rajon Rondo made 10.5 million last season.

Jose Calderon 9.7 million (altho Hoopshype reports 10+ million)

Jason Kidd 8.5

Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook both signed massive extensions within the last couple seasons that will pay them well over 10 million a season.

Hell even back-up combo guard Jason Terry made over 10 million a season last year.

Jrue Holday has been asking for a MAX contract from the Sixers. In 3-4 years Dragic may not even be a top 15 paid PG.

Point is: 10 million dollars doesnt equal top 5 salary for a point guard.. not that he even signed for that amount of money.

 

[Kuzzy Powers]

All the names you listed are all their Franchises center piece which they are trying to build around (minus perhaps Rubio only because of Kevin Love and Steph Curry but I highly doubt he makes 10+ mill after his rookie contract alone). Goran Dragic, once again, is not a center piece.

These guys are also going to get max contracts when their rookie contracts expire, unless they give their current teams "home town discounts". Even Steph Curry despite injury concerns is going to get a massive contract. Cmon dude, if you follow the league even remotely you should be used to this shit by now.

 

[Argath]

Most if not all of those guys were to be paid 10 million last season or have signed extensions that will pay them that money next year. Maybe Jason Kidd was a little less. This post alone is proof of why you have no business even discussing this shit.

Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Baron Davis, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash (last year), Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd

Those were the names you listed. So you feel Dragic deserves to be paid just as much as these guys? Outside of Calderon, all of these guys were or are all stars.

Chauncey Billups 18 million dollar contract was amnestied.

Baron Davis' 14 million dollar contract was amnestied.

Rajon Rondo made 10.5 million last season.

Jose Calderon 9.7 million (altho Hoopshype reports 10+ million)

Jason Kidd 8.5

Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook both signed massive extensions within the last couple seasons that will pay them well over 10 million a season.

Hell even back-up combo guard Jason Terry made over 10 million a season last year.

Jrue Holday has been asking for a MAX contract from the Sixers. In 3-4 years Dragic may not even be a top 15 paid PG.

Point is: 10 million dollars doesnt equal top 5 salary for a point guard.. not that he even signed for that amount of money.

Again, outside of Calderon and Holliday, all of these players are or were Franchise players which teams attempted to build around. Something nobody is going to do nor can do with Goran Dragic. I think Holliday may be a better player than Dragic, but him making 10+ mill a season is overpaying for him as well unless he has some kind of huge breakout year.

Your argument is comparing Dragic, a guy who can't even earn a starting spot on the teams he plays for, to all star players. You're doing nothing but making my point that giving Dragic a contract similar to these guys is highly overpaying him for his value. He has hardly been in contention for starting roles on his team much less an all star appearance. When Baron Davis and Chauncey Billups signed those massive contracts, they were all star players. Baron Davis was averaging 25+ a night on a squad of scrubs and chauncey had led his team to a championship. And guess what? They were still amnestied. Why? Because teams felt they were being overpaid!

And for your last point, besides Jeremy Lin, name one PG who has not reached an all star game and is making 10+ million next year?

These guys are also going to get max contracts when their rookie contracts expire, unless they give their current teams "home town discounts". Even Steph Curry despite injury concerns is going to get a massive contract. Cmon dude, if you follow the league even remotely you should be used to this shit by now.

Those guys are also their franchises #1 Player right now! How are you even comparing Dragic's situation to any of these players? All of these players teams are trying to build around them, Dragic is the type of player you use to build around someone else. Would you really start a franchise around Dragic? I mean c'mon Kuzzy, just admit paying Dragic 10 mill a year is overpaying for him.

 

[Primetime]

Stop talking about Dragic making 10 million a year. It's 7.5 million.

In today's market, I don't have a problem with a guy like Dragic making that kind of money. With starters minutes (let's say ~35) he's a 16/7/3 guy with a low turnover rate. In the Suns offense, those assists should be raised also.