Manchester Derby

[1ke]

That was so awesome. Fuck Man U, fuck Wayne Rooney's little whiny ass. Everything about the way he acted today really got under my skin. He complained about EVERYTHING, and was always throwing up his hands in frustration with his teammates.

God this feels so good. Now we just gotta take care business at Newcastle next week, which is a lot easier said than done.

As he should have been. Because some of his teammates did not belong on the field.

 

[Rudi]

As he should have been. Because some of his teammates did not belong on the field.

True true. I was honestly so excited to see that neither Young OR Valencia were playing...those are the type of guys that City usually struggles with. When I saw they were not in the lineup I was hella excited. Any reason for that decision aside from Fergie just picking all the older guys with more experience in big games?

 

[1ke]

True true. I was honestly so excited to see that neither Young OR Valencia were playing...those are the type of guys that City usually struggles with. When I saw they were not in the lineup I was hella excited. Any reason for that decision aside from Fergie just picking all the older guys with more experience in big games?

Fergie went there not to win. 4-5-1 is United's European away formation. A formation designed for defense and possession and maybe stealing a goal maybe not. He knew a draw would do so he played it that way. Its worked in the past, but not this past season at all. So when he decided to go with that, everything else followed. Nani is in form right now. Valencia's form had been dropping a bit. Young never starts over Nani and Tony V when they are both healthy(not good enough). Plus that whole diving thing really rubbed everyone the wrong way. That leaves Park. Who I love dearly, and is Fergies go to guy for big games. But he hasnt played in a month. Rafael got bench for last weekend, so Jones came on for him.

And as for Rooney. Kompany man marked him all night. So all the pressure from Kompany, added with 5 in the middle, and nobody for him to pass to, he was lost. When you play as the 1 up top. You need the 5 behind you making magic. All the United Midfield did all night was make him chase balls he couldnt reach, or pass him the ball and watch him get his brains beat in.

The 4-5-1 was actually working too. The 1st half went exactly to plan for 45 minutes. Before that, United sat back, defended ok, and had it working. But, when you go and dont try to win, you get what you ask for. And thats what happened.

For me, my shit list is after this game.
Alex Ferguson
Phil Jones
Giggs
Park
Scholes

But, like I said they got what they deserved. Hats off. 2 wins for United and City each as they played 4 times this year, but United shit away the League with 1 point out of 9 in 22 days.

 

[Bigpapa42]

This has felt like such a weird, fucked up season. This really doesn't belong here... but lacking a Random Thoughts thread for this section, here it goes.

It almost seems weird to me that the title race is going to go right down to the wire. To the very end. I look at the top clubs in the Prem in terms of squad and talent and it feels like Manchester City should have run away with it. The talent that Manchester City has on its squad is probably only behind Barcelona and Real Madrid in global football. Whereas this seasons Manchester United feels like its a clear step down in overall quality from the title-winning United squads of the past few years. Even if neither side wins either of their remaining matches, their points total isn't far off the "norm" for a title-winning Prem side over the past decade and not far removed from the most dominant champions of the past decade (Chelsea with 95 points in 2004-2005). So why does it kinda feel like either side will make a slightly disappointing champion?

That's not trying to downplay the accomplishment. Not at all. But musing on the season as a whole (thus far), Manchester City only really seemed truly dominant in a few matches this season. They were very good in much of the rest, but simply being very good is part of what seems disappointing. Given the level of talent and the fact they have a very good manager, that doesn't seem like its quite enough. They had some great wins but they also had some poor games, such as the losses to Sunderland, Swansea City, and Everton. They just didn't seem to have the same consistency that I have come to expect out of a truly great Prem side. Perhaps if I go back and look closely at results, Mourinho's Chelsea and the Rooney-Ronaldo United would have those same occasional misteps...? And my perception might be colored somewhat by clear disappointment in Europe. Regardless, it ends up feeling like the 2011-2012 Man City were a great squad that was only upon occasion a truly great side.

As for United, it felt like they spent most of their season playing closer to their level of potential... but that potential was lesser than what City had. They had some poor results too. No matter what ends up happening and what their points total is, I just can't see this side as being on the same level as over the years preceding.

It goes beyond the top two, though. Arsenal have less overall talent than anytime I've followed them. They've featured several players quite regularly this season who don't belong on a Prem squad at all. They have one world class player who could start anywhere and one marginally top class player who could probably do well for most major clubs (Vermaelen). And yet they could still finish 3rd. In a sense that's a testament to Wenger (who also created the pseudo-mess that squad is in) and the one-man wrecking crew than RvP has been, but its also something of a negative against the overall quality in the Prem this season.

Tottenham looked really good for half the season and shite for the second half. Liverpool have only rarely looked like a "top four" club. Chelsea have been disappointing... and yet Chelski could end up champions of Europe. Newcastle have actually pretty very impressive, yet the degree to which other clubs have disappointed has over-shadowed that.

It goes beyond the Prem, even. Bayern Munich could also become champions of Europe and yet they are clearly not the best club in Germany this season either. Real Madrid have almost wrapped up La Liga... and yet that has to feel like a disappointing season, despite the side being outright brilliant at times. After starting out the season so strong and becoming "world champions", Barcelona are only likely to add the Copa del Rey at this point.

Maybe my perception is way off... yet it feels like a "down" season in so many ways. I think we're going to see lot of bigger clubs looking to "reload" this summer... Regardless of who wins the Prem or the Champions League. Between that factor and the European Championships, it should make for an interesting summer...

 

[1ke]

I agree with all that. This was supposed to be a "transition" season for United this year. They are 2 midfielders away from being back tho. GK, Def, and CF's are fine.

Whats even more astonishing to me, is that had Madrid and Barcelona won the CL semis. There would have been an all Spain Finals for Europe. 5 teams in four semi final games in Europe this year for La Liga. Crazy.

 

[wr50l]

I'm not really surprised that a midfield of Carrick, Giggs and worst of all Scholes could get outplayed all game. And I'm not all that shocked that a save-the-day sub of Wellbeck's quality would have absolutely no impact on the game. When you compare the two squads, City have bags more talent.

 

[mgoblue2290]

Agreed with Papa. I can't believe City didn't run away with the league this year, but I think the sum of their parts is equal to more than them as a squad. That could change as they play more with each other but it seems as if City will spend big again this summer. They'd be better off keeping the same squad and focusing on becoming a team rather than the mercenaries they are.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I agree with all that. This was supposed to be a "transition" season for United this year. They are 2 midfielders away from being back tho. GK, Def, and CF's are fine.

Whats even more astonishing to me, is that had Madrid and Barcelona won the CL semis. There would have been an all Spain Finals for Europe. 5 teams in four semi final games in Europe this year for La Liga. Crazy.

I think this was mostly a transition season for United. The squad felt that way, for the most part. I almost think they over-achieved to an extent, by doing as well as they have. And you're right - the United side isn't far away. But they just don't look as strong as City "on paper".

Agreed with Papa. I can't believe City didn't run away with the league this year, but I think the sum of their parts is equal to more than them as a squad. That could change as they play more with each other but it seems as if City will spend big again this summer. They'd be better off keeping the same squad and focusing on becoming a team rather than the mercenaries they are.

That sums it up nicely - the side didn't always equal to the sum of the individual players. And yes, they are probably best served moving forward by adding squad depth not major additions...

 

[Senser81]

I think the quality of play/player in the EPL has steadily declined over the past few years. Their best players now are either old or hurt. It used to be that any of the Big 4 could potentially win the EPL and the Champions League. Now Liverpool and Arsenal have fallen back to 2nd tier status with the Tottenhams of the league. I think Ronaldo signing with Real Madrid hurt both the EPL and ManU, because not only was he a good player he was also exciting. Its too bad that Fernando Torres cannot stay healthy, because he might have been able to add some flash to the EPL.

I watched Stoke-Arsenal a few days ago, and it was the same crap. Peter Crouch is playing for yet another EPL team scored a header, Van Persie scored a goal for Arsenal and was the only consistent threat on the team, and the game ended in a draw. It wasn't bad to watch, but you had the feeling that you were watching a 2nd tier game.

La Liga has signed away some of the potential EPL star players, but I wonder if the lesser European and Eastern European leagues have had a greater effect on the EPL by signing away potential EPL players.

 

[NAHSTE]

Interesting big-picture commentary on the state of the EPL. I won't disagree with the sentiment, the top of the league was a bit underwhelming this year. As for City's summer, I too think/hope they keep the same squad in tact. I hope they avoid the temptation to add more big names just for the sake of making headlines. If there's an on-field tactical reason, sure, improve the club if you can, but I think most of the improvement could be found in house by letting the current group play together more and become a more cohesive unit.

 

[wr50l]

Man U and Arsenal just need to spend the money they have. Man U should've been going hard for someone like Modric or Mata or Van der Vaart not bringing back Paul bloody Scholes. Chelsea were committed to rebuilding an aged squad and it didn't help that there was no harmony with the new manager. Barca and Real are a class above just now but it's due to circumstances of transition rather than money.

 

[Senser81]

Barca and Real are a class above just now but it's due to circumstances of transition rather than money.

Possibly, but I still think money is a part of the EPL "problem". The teams had been overspending in the mid-2000's and not really making any money, and now the teams can't afford to spend at the same rate.

 

[BigHouseUSA]

I don't think there's much doubt that this season has seen a small drop in quality. Just look at us, Danny Simpson and Mike Williamson are starting in our backline and we have a shot at the Champions League. I think most of it comes down to mismanagement with clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal, and even Chelsea should've purged their old guard in the preseason (although it's hard to argue this when they're in the CL final). Also down to England's love of their last generation which has not been phased out for the new one, which is incredibly raw. I don't think we'll see this last much longer though, The three clubs I mentioned aren't going to play at this level for long, even Man Utd seem to be in a transition year, that's four teams not at their best who will probably soon be back in the thick of things. Having said that I think this has been one of the most entertaining and enjoyable seasons in recent years.

 

[Bigpapa42]

I think the quality of play/player in the EPL has steadily declined over the past few years. Their best players now are either old or hurt. It used to be that any of the Big 4 could potentially win the EPL and the Champions League. Now Liverpool and Arsenal have fallen back to 2nd tier status with the Tottenhams of the league. I think Ronaldo signing with Real Madrid hurt both the EPL and ManU, because not only was he a good player he was also exciting. Its too bad that Fernando Torres cannot stay healthy, because he might have been able to add some flash to the EPL.

I watched Stoke-Arsenal a few days ago, and it was the same crap. Peter Crouch is playing for yet another EPL team scored a header, Van Persie scored a goal for Arsenal and was the only consistent threat on the team, and the game ended in a draw. It wasn't bad to watch, but you had the feeling that you were watching a 2nd tier game.

La Liga has signed away some of the potential EPL star players, but I wonder if the lesser European and Eastern European leagues have had a greater effect on the EPL by signing away potential EPL players.

Its an interesting situation. Though I don't know if its as simple as that.

La Liga really hasn't changed much in the past 15-20 years. Its still basically a two-club league with Real Madrid and Barcelona fighting for honors. Both squads are world class and deep. Same as 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago... You often have one club that is nearly strong enough to challenge. Occassionally, they manage, such as Valencia a decade ago. You've also had clubs like Deportivo la Coruna, Sevilla, and Villarreal fill that role. There is always quality in Spain and even the mid-table clubs often have some top quality players from outside Spain. But that hasn't really changed. I don't know that the overall quality of the league has increased to any degree in recent years. I think there are more top-level Spanish players abroad at this point (mostly in the Prem) than has been typical in the past. In a sense, English clubs are raiding La Liga more than in the past.

Italy has declined if anything. None of the sides there truly look world class. Milan is close, and Juventus might be - though its tougher to tell without them playing in Europe this season. And even as you have a side like Napoli stepping up a bit, you have Inter dropping down. Most top-level Italian players still play in Serie A.

The German Bundesliga is, perhaps, stepping up to a small degree. The quality of play is certainly there and they have tons of talent. The top-level German players are still predominently staying home in Germany. They have some top-quality players who could play at the Prem level. But outside of Bayern Munich, most clubs would not be able to hold onto them if clubs from England or Spain come calling. Germany has some financial limitations compared to England and Spain because of TV rights and ticket sales not generating as much revenue. Are German clubs managing to steal or hoarde players that would otherwise be Prem players? Not so much that I see. A mid-level Prem club can pay more - both in terms of transfer free and wages - than a comparable Bundesliga club. German clubs don't have limitations on non-EU players, which is also a small factor.

France, Portugal, and even The Netherlands are all interesting. Most top-level players move abroad for their playing prime, if not before. If you look at the current national squads, over half of the France squad plays outside of League 1, while more than that play outside Portugal and The Netherlands. In the case of Portugal, you even have national team players in nations like Turkey and Romania. Clubs from all three nations tend to use a lot of foreign players - most numerously Brazilians for Portugal, African players from France, and everywhere for Holland. But they are pretty much all selling clubs. They can't hang onto players that clubs in bigger nations want. A few of the bigger ones - Porto, Lyon, Ajax, etc - may have leverage to get strong fees but they rarely have the option of hanging onto the player rather than selling.

I'm not so sure about Eastern Europe. There is money there now - well, in Russia and The Ukraine at least. And there are some quality players there. Some of whom might be Prem-caliber. But not tons. And those clubs have to pay huge wages to land them. The likes of Samuel Eto'o, Christopher Samba, Kaisuke Honda, Aiden McGeady, Danny, Bruno Alves, and probably Domenico Cristico would all be "Prem-caliber", I expect. But a lot of foreigners really aren't. In the case of The Ukraine, they tend to buy quite a number of younger Brazilians, who wouldn't really be options for Prem clubs because of Work Permit issues. Outside of Russia and The Ukraine, there really isn't tons of money in most of eastern Europe. They tend to stick to lower-level South Americans and Africans as imports because they are cheap (and, possibly, to give their racist fans something to abuse). The rise in overall quality in Russia & the Ukraine might have a small effect on English clubs, but I can't see it being notable.

I think a big factor is the dearth of real quality young English players. Its not to say there are none. But when you look at players 25 or under and at a level to be potentially playing at the national team level, there are not that many proven commodities when you compare to Spain or Germany. Many of them are still in the "promising" category - Smalling, Cleverley, Jones, Rodwell, Wilshire, Welbeck Walker... Compare that to Germany who can roll out an entire national team of players 25 or under who are decently experienced for the NT and have played key roles in club success already. Spain is somewhere in between. England has quite simply fallen behind.

Another factor which might be in play to some degree... The Prem has typically relied on the other "home" nations to provide talent. Outside of Charlie Adam, Gareth Bale, and maybe Aaron Ramsey (iffy) are the only "younger" players who are playing notable roles for bigger Prem clubs. I don't even want to star to consider why, but that seems like its a bit abnormal. Those nations are still providing plenty of decent players to mid-Prem and lower clubs that's really it.

 

[1ke]

Its an interesting situation. Though I don't know if its as simple as that.

La Liga really hasn't changed much in the past 15-20 years. Its still basically a two-club league with Real Madrid and Barcelona fighting for honors. Both squads are world class and deep. Same as 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago... You often have one club that is nearly strong enough to challenge. Occassionally, they manage, such as Valencia a decade ago. You've also had clubs like Deportivo la Coruna, Sevilla, and Villarreal fill that role. There is always quality in Spain and even the mid-table clubs often have some top quality players from outside Spain. But that hasn't really changed. I don't know that the overall quality of the league has increased to any degree in recent years. I think there are more top-level Spanish players abroad at this point (mostly in the Prem) than has been typical in the past. In a sense, English clubs are raiding La Liga more than in the past.

It still is a 2 club league, and that will never change with the way La Liga is set-up. Barca and Madrid can do fuck all and get away with it, and all the other teams in the league can do nothing other than beg for mercy. Take a team like Bilbao, one of those teams that occasionally challenge. They are really good. I mean very very good. They clowned United. And thats an understatement. With everything I said about La Liga, the way its set up, it forces teams to focus on youth and doing things "the right way". And La Liga this year is stronger than ever.

Italy has declined if anything. None of the sides there truly look world class. Milan is close, and Juventus might be - though its tougher to tell without them playing in Europe this season. And even as you have a side like Napoli stepping up a bit, you have Inter dropping down. Most top-level Italian players still play in Serie A.

Agree, Milan right now are in the middle if their own transition and trying to get younger. And man, with the attacking kids they have, they should be fun to watch. And Juve, amazingly undefeated, but have no clue what they are as the Serie A is shit.

The German Bundesliga is, perhaps, stepping up to a small degree. The quality of play is certainly there and they have tons of talent. The top-level German players are still predominently staying home in Germany. They have some top-quality players who could play at the Prem level. But outside of Bayern Munich, most clubs would not be able to hold onto them if clubs from England or Spain come calling. Germany has some financial limitations compared to England and Spain because of TV rights and ticket sales not generating as much revenue. Are German clubs managing to steal or hoarde players that would otherwise be Prem players? Not so much that I see. A mid-level Prem club can pay more - both in terms of transfer free and wages - than a comparable Bundesliga club. German clubs don't have limitations on non-EU players, which is also a small factor.

Agree again. Although, I think we're all going to see a shift in German league players players starting to leave. Ozil may have started a trend. German clubs will find it increasingly difficult to hold on to their own. There is already talk of the post Ueros bidding war that will take place for Hummels. Marin, just signed for the Chavs 2 days ago. And Kagawa looks 75% on his way to Manchester United. And Ba and Cisse are making the jump look better each weekend.

France, Portugal, and even The Netherlands are all interesting. Most top-level players move abroad for their playing prime, if not before. If you look at the current national squads, over half of the France squad plays outside of League 1, while more than that play outside Portugal and The Netherlands. In the case of Portugal, you even have national team players in nations like Turkey and Romania. Clubs from all three nations tend to use a lot of foreign players - most numerously Brazilians for Portugal, African players from France, and everywhere for Holland. But they are pretty much all selling clubs. They can't hang onto players that clubs in bigger nations want. A few of the bigger ones - Porto, Lyon, Ajax, etc - may have leverage to get strong fees but they rarely have the option of hanging onto the player rather than selling.

Agreed.

I'm not so sure about Eastern Europe. There is money there now - well, in Russia and The Ukraine at least. And there are some quality players there. Some of whom might be Prem-caliber. But not tons. And those clubs have to pay huge wages to land them. The likes of Samuel Eto'o, Christopher Samba, Kaisuke Honda, Aiden McGeady, Danny, Bruno Alves, and probably Domenico Cristico would all be "Prem-caliber", I expect. But a lot of foreigners really aren't. In the case of The Ukraine, they tend to buy quite a number of younger Brazilians, who wouldn't really be options for Prem clubs because of Work Permit issues. Outside of Russia and The Ukraine, there really isn't tons of money in most of eastern Europe. They tend to stick to lower-level South Americans and Africans as imports because they are cheap (and, possibly, to give their racist fans something to abuse). The rise in overall quality in Russia & the Ukraine might have a small effect on English clubs, but I can't see it being notable.

I feel like the Russian league is about par with MLS, just with 3 much richer teams. And I know everyone else finds it crazy all these Ukrainian teams find all these Brazilian kids and get them to leave and go play in the dead of winter. Lol

I think a big factor is the dearth of real quality young English players. Its not to say there are none. But when you look at players 25 or under and at a level to be potentially playing at the national team level, there are not that many proven commodities when you compare to Spain or Germany. Many of them are still in the "promising" category - Smalling, Cleverley, Jones, Rodwell, Wilshire, Welbeck Walker... Compare that to Germany who can roll out an entire national team of players 25 or under who are decently experienced for the NT and have played key roles in club success already. Spain is somewhere in between. England has quite simply fallen behind.

This has to be the biggest thing wrong. There are very stupid restrictions in England that dont allow coaching the same way its allowed in Ned, or Spain. And its hurting. Obviously. Look at the top 4 in the standings right now. Man City, complete shit youth system. (Not trying to hate, but other than Sturridge nobody can name another). United, Welbz, Clevs, Keane, Cole, Jones, and Smalling(Last 2 were bought). Chelski, average youth, Josh and that fullback kid standout. LeArse. Ox, Wilshire, Gibbs. Usually very good. But too foreign heavy for England's good. I left out teams like Tottenham and Liverpool, both with some notable young players, but none of them can compete with anyone from other countries. As we saw last year with the Uero U21's.

 

[seaplus]

went looking for the official united thread but this was all i could find


was in Manchester for this match ... such great memories! hope united loses today