Mike Golic "takes dump" on Football Outsiders this morning

[FirstTimer]

I don't go to Chi City enough but why was Isiah Thomas compared to Carmelo Anthony?

Some ridiculousness. I don't know how it all started but essentially the argument was being made that based on this and these and these basketball sabre stats you could show Carmelo>Zeke

http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/chicago-bulls-forum/8360-carmelo-anthony-2.html

 

[FedEx227]

Well here's the thing....

Carmelo is way better at being a highly efficient scoring SF than Isiah was.

In a similar way Isiah was a way better point guard.

 

[FirstTimer]

Well here's the thing....

Carmelo is way better at being a highly efficient scoring SF than Isiah was.

In a similar way Isiah was a way better point guard.

I guess? ha

 

[Senser81]

Some ridiculousness. I don't know how it all started but essentially the argument was being made that based on this and these and these basketball sabre stats you could show Carmelo>Zeke

http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/chicago-bulls-forum/8360-carmelo-anthony-2.html

The problem was that Lefty consciously chose to ignore the one statistic in which Thomas had a big edge over Carmelo...assists. Yet another WTF moment produced by Lefty's statistical "analysis".

 

[FedEx227]

Where as every baseball player offensively has the exact same goal and pretty much a similar way to achieve said goal. Yeah, you have guys that don't hit home runs, some that hit triples, etc. Essentially though the goal is not to make an out or to score runs (whichever "school" you belong to).

Basketball is not that way at all. What Isiah does on the court is completely different than Carmelo. From how many times they have possessions, where they stand, what they do with the ball, etc. You just can't measure them the same. It's not fair to either party. They both contribute in their own way to their teams success, but not in anyway that's even remotely comparable.

 

[FirstTimer]

Where as every baseball player offensively has the exact same goal and pretty much a similar way to achieve said goal. Yeah, you have guys that don't hit home runs, some that hit triples, etc. Essentially though the goal is not to make an out or to score runs (whichever "school" you belong to).

Basketball is not that way at all. What Isiah does on the court is completely different than Carmelo. From how many times they have possessions, where they stand, what they do with the ball, etc. You just can't measure them the same. It's not fair to either party. They both contribute in their own way to their teams success, but not in anyway that's even remotely comparable.

Does the disagreement with you and Lefty keep things spicy in the bedroom?

 

[KINGOFOOTBALL]

When that cockface from FootballOutsiders was on NFL network It upset me as much as any game did that season.

I really wish there was a way to burn a website down.

 

[Senser81]

When that cockface from FootballOutsiders was on NFL network It upset me as much as any game did that season.

I really wish there was a way to burn a website down.

yeah, I've never really understood how they became so relatively 'mainstream'. Basically what they do is comprise some wacky formula which shows something 'unconventional', such as Bert Jones having the best QB season ever, predicting the Rams to go 9-7 in 2009, or Reggie Rucker being the 33rd best WR in history...and then pass it off as "I bet you didn't know this!", as if its factual information or something.

 

[FedEx227]

Does the disagreement with you and Lefty keep things spicy in the bedroom?

I have yet to sleep with Lefty.

He's kind of a prude.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I just read through that Carmelo/Thomas debacle of a thread. Wow. Just wow.

Thomas played on a team where nobody cared about statictics or who scored. Thomas probably couldn't tell you what his scoring average was in 1988, or who led the Pistons in scoring in any given year during his career, let alone where his "PER" stacked up. He was the unquestioned leader of a team that had to fight tooth and nail with the vinatge Celtics, Jordan's Bulls, and Magic's Lakeshow to win two titles, and did it on a cranky ankle and with the worst supporting cast in terms of HOF players and all stars. He made big shot after big shot, played tremendous defense, and wasn't afraid to smack you in the mouth to win.

Carmelo Anthony is a guy who scores a lot of points on a soft team that gets bounced in the first round every year. He's a good player. There isn't a GM in the history of basketball who would start a team with Carmelo over Thomas. There isn't a stat that can sway me.

 

[FedEx227]

I don't think that's the point though Warner.

They play different positions, in different eras. There is no comparison, nor a need to do so. Carmelo is a hell of a player, whether his teams win titles or not. As an individual Carmelo does what he does, Isiah did what he did.

You can argue their merits all you want, unquestionably that's going to be on Isiah's side but the entire argument is retarded. It's like asking who is the better player between Julius Erving and Bob Cousy. It's SportsNation level of argument/discussion.

To be fair, yeah Carmelo has gotten bounced from the first round a bunch of times but they did make it to the Western Conference Finals in 08-09.

 

[Senser81]

You can argue their merits all you want, unquestionably that's going to be on Isiah's side but the entire argument is retarded. It's like asking who is the better player between Julius Erving and Bob Cousy.

Except that both Erving and Cousy are in the NBA's top 50 players ever. If Carmelo Anthony retired tomorrow, I don't think anyone would put him in the top 50. This would be more like asking who is the better player between Kiki Vandeweghe and Bob Cousy.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

When that cockface from FootballOutsiders was on NFL network It upset me as much as any game did that season.

I really wish there was a way to burn a website down.

I suggest you dig up Tex from MM to help you with this.

 

[FedEx227]

Yeah, I can probably jump on board with that...

Kiki Vandeweghe: 19.7 PPG, 3.4 RPG, 2.1 APG, 18.4 PER

Carmelo Anthony: 24.7 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 3.1 APG, 20.2 PER

We'll see how long Carmelo plays and progresses, but they are decently similar.

 

[NAHSTE]

Absolutely, plus baseball at it's core is 1v1 so it's extremely easy to break down quantifiable stuff.

Football and for the most part basketball are completely team sports, so it's really hard to get statistical stuff outside of "this team is better when Player A is on the court/field over Player B". There are some okay ones in basketball, PER is alright, +/- is okay, Usage % can show you some stuff but it's not nearly on the same level as baseball.

Football I think is nearly impossible to get any sort of "higher-level" statistical grasp on.

This, I disagree with. It's 1v9. The pitcher can't exercise his objective without his fielders.

 

[FirstTimer]

I thought another odd discussion had to do with Paul Piece and Clyde Drexler. Lefty and another guy over there again based on sabre basketball stats had Pierce>Drexler.

Sure you can show it sabremetrically stat wise I guess...? But when it comes down to it who would really start a steam with Paul Pierce over Clyde Drexler? Pierce is a very good player but Drexler is an all time great. Simply looking at the numbers doesn't really show what each meant to the teams in the grand scheme of the system etc.

 

[FirstTimer]

This, I disagree with. It's 1v9. The pitcher can't exercise his objective without his fielders.

Greg Maddux scoffs at you.

 

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

This, I disagree with. It's 1v9. The pitcher can't exercise his objective without his fielders.

I think 1v1 is more a reference to 1 action = 1 reaction in the game of baseball.

Everything is quantifiable and the final result is the sum of all its parts.

 

[FedEx227]

I think 1v1 is more a reference to 1 action = 1 reaction in the game of baseball.

Everything is quantifiable and the final result is the sum of all its parts.

Yeah exactly.

 

[Senser81]

I suggest you dig up Tex from MM to help you with this.

FYI, Tex posts at VSN...just sayin.