MLB network's Top 9 Second Basemen Ever

[FirstTimer]

After the top 8, you have the following group:

Grich
Biggio
Gordon
Kent
Fox
Whitaker

Chase Utley?

Utley to me is basically a better fielding version of Kent without the longevity at this point. (kent became a worse fielder as his career wore on and his awful metrics are weighted down by that. We haven't seen Utley's decline on defense at those ages..if it happens) Utley peak is/was pretty damn good for those few seasons but I'd have a tough time putting him in the Top 9/10 ahead of Kent, Biggio, Whitaker, Gordon.

 

[Senser81]

Nellie Fox despite being a White Sox legend isn't really great.

.288/.348/.363, 93 OPS+, 44 WAR. Even his 5-year peaks aren't that great.

The issue comes up with the fact that he wasn't really bad. He got a lot of hits, tons of hits, played great defense and basically did everything a 2B was suppose to do in the time he played.

However in the context of all-time 2B he doesn't really stand out at all.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

The Phillies really had some late bloomers on this recent team.

Utley didn't break out until about 27, we all know about Howard coming up late, and even Victorino didn't get 600 PA's until he was 27.

 

[FedEx227]

And that's why they are now in a bad spot. They had their peaks all around the same time which was awesome for their offense but now they've locked a lot of them up beyond that peak.

 

[FirstTimer]

And that's why they are now in a bad spot. They had their peaks all around the same time which was awesome for their offense but now they've locked a lot of them up beyond that peak.

You mean they were unwise to let Jayson Werth walk away?

 

[Senser81]

No Jackie Robinson? Racist much?

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Off topic here, but I noticed this while looking at the Phillies....

Surprising to see that out of 12 seasons, Jimmy Rollins has only had five seasons of above average OPS. And four of them were 101, 101, 102, 103.

I think he's a good example of a guy who the OPS+ number doesn't really treat fairly, because when he does get on base, he's pretty productive. Led the league in triples four times, great base stealer (373 SB, only 78 CS), good power for a SS, around 40 doubles per year, etc.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

No Jackie Robinson? Racist much?

Actually it's pretty shocking he's not shoehorned onto the list somehow. Probably because he only had four full seasons at 2B.

 

[Senser81]

Actually it's pretty shocking he's not shoehorned onto the list somehow. Probably because he only had four full seasons at 2B.

Only four full seasons...but last I checked he was so awesome that every team in the MLB retired his number. Even teams that weren't in existence when Robinson played.

Who was more overrated? Willie Randolph or Steve Sax?

 

[FedEx227]

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Oh god, Sax.

I have no idea if Sax in an intelligent man, but he was a dumb baseball player. Bad fielder with awful defensive instincts, and for a good laugh, scan his CS line sometime.

 

[FedEx227]

He was pretty awful all around. I thought he was better then looked at his number and good lord. Terrrrible.

 

[dell71]

No Jackie Robinson? Racist much?

Pretty much came in to bitch about him not being on the list. If Carew can make despite playing more games at 1st than Robinson should make it. Incidentally, I'd move Carew down a few slots and bring Alomar up. Excellent with the bat, but best defensive player at the position I've ever seen (no idea if his metrics support this).

 

[FirstTimer]

No Jackie Robinson? Racist much?

Actually it's pretty shocking he's not shoehorned onto the list somehow. Probably because he only had four full seasons at 2B.

Pretty much came in to bitch about him not being on the list. If Carew can make despite playing more games at 1st than Robinson should make it. Incidentally, I'd move Carew down a few slots and bring Alomar up. Excellent with the bat, but best defensive player at the position I've ever seen (no idea if his metrics support this).

Jackie didn't make the list because you needed 1,000 career games at 2B.

I forget the reason they gave for Biggio not being on the list but it was mentioned before the countdown even started. Some sort of odd caveat.

 

[FedEx227]

Carew was probably better overall though, only slightly. Totally understand the point though because they are very similar.

Then again, Carew played 1100+ games at 2B, Robinson 748

 

[FedEx227]

Jackie didn't make the list because you needed 1,000 career games at 2B.

And that.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

Pretty much came in to bitch about him not being on the list. If Carew can make despite playing more games at 1st than Robinson should make it. Incidentally, I'd move Carew down a few slots and bring Alomar up. Excellent with the bat, but best defensive player at the position I've ever seen (no idea if his metrics support this).

They don't.

He actually rates as a negative defender according to B-R dWAR, and also in RF/G and RF/9.

Obviously that is insanity.

I don't like the B-R dWAR. For a modern example of why it sucks, take a look at this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/phillbr01.shtml

If Brandon Phillips and Roberto Alomar are negative value defenders, then you can toss that stat right out the window.

Meanwhile, Clint "The Statue" Barmes rates very well.

 

[FirstTimer]

They don't.

He actually rates as a negative defender according to B-R dWAR, and also in RF/G and RF/9.

Obviously that is insanity.

I don't like the B-R dWAR. For a modern example of why it sucks, take a look at this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/phillbr01.shtml

If Brandon Phillips and Roberto Alomar are negative value defenders, then you can toss that stat right out the window.

Meanwhile, Clint "The Statue" Barmes rates very well.

It's why I hate defensive metrics in general. I once saw that a metric graded Alfonso Soriano out as an above average fielder. I laughed then pretty much quit looking at defensive metrics for the rest of my life to this point.

It's actually odd because so often I feel that defensive metrcs love speed and range WAY too much yet then you have guys like Barmes scoring highly while Robinson, etc score poorly.

 

[nflman2033]

Yeah you can really measure defense, even GG awards are bias.

As far as Jeff Kent is concerned I will have a very difficult time putting guys in his era on a list of all time greats when power is all they had

 

[Rudi]

This list sucks without Pokey Reese.