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NBA Players Assoc. wants age limit back to 18

NAHSTE

New member
... and some other things. They just released their counter-proposal for the new collective bargaining agreement. Interesting shit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/sports/basketball/09union.html?_r=1&ref=sports

The standoff between owners and players in the N.B.A. is measured mostly in dollars and rhetoric. But the divide runs deeper, with competing goals and divergent visions of what a healthy league should look like.


That chasm became more apparent with a review of the players’ proposed changes to the labor agreement, details of which were provided to The New York Times.

While the owners are pursuing a sweeping overhaul of the N.B.A.’s economic system, the players union is seeking modest changes — from a loosening of trade rules and free-agency restrictions to an elimination of the age limit and a more generous pension for retired players.

The union’s full proposal was outlined by its executive director, Billy Hunter, in a podcast sent to players late last week. Its contents were described by a person with union ties who has heard the podcast and reviewed the written proposal. The person spoke on condition of anonymity to preserve his access to the information.

The most substantial concession — an offer to reduce the players’ guarantee of 57 percent of revenues — was disclosed by Hunter in an interview with The Times last month. Other items, like a push for increased revenue-sharing, have been known for some time. But the rest of the union’s proposal has remained confidential until now.

In his podcast, Hunter outlines the following ideas:

¶A call for “enhanced trade and signing flexibility,” which Hunter characterizes as “a win-win” for players and teams.

Currently, teams that are over the salary cap must match salaries, within 125 percent, to make a trade. The union wants to roughly double the standard, to make it within 150 percent, which would make trades easier to construct, thus fostering player movement. The union also wants to eliminate “base-year compensation,” an arcane rule that makes it difficult to trade players after they receive a major raise.

¶A request to drop the age limit back to 18.

In 2005, with the union’s agreement, the N.B.A. began requiring all incoming players to be at least 19 years old and one year removed from high school. The union supported the rule begrudgingly and wants it changed back. Hunter is proposing instead that the N.B.A. adopt rules that “incentivize high school and college athletes to attend school.” No specifics are offered, but one possibility would be to adjust the rookie wage scale to reward players who stay in school.

¶A push to make restricted free agency less onerous.

Under the current rules, when a restricted free agent signs an offer sheet, his team has seven days to match it. That time period is sufficiently long that it discourages rivals from making offers. The union wants to reduce it by several days. It also wants qualifying offers — which trigger the restricted status — to be higher.

¶A call for increased revenue-sharing among the owners.

The N.B.A. has the most meager revenue-sharing plan among the three major professional sports. It is the only league that does not share national television revenue equally, according to the union. The N.B.A. is already working on a new revenue-sharing plan, but considers it separate from collective bargaining. The union wants to have input.

¶A proposal to shorten contracts signed under the midlevel exception, from five years to four.

In return, the union wants to add a second midlevel exception. The additional slot (worth about $5.8 million), which can be used every year, would replace the biannual exception (worth about $2.1 million), which can only be used every other year.

¶An offer to allow major capital expenses — like arena construction and renovation — to be deducted from the revenue pool that is shared by players and owners.

The union’s intent here is to address a major concern for owners — rising costs, and how to account for them when dividing revenues — while supporting investments that help spur growth (i.e., better arenas).

¶A request for neutral review of on-court discipline.

Currently, players can appeal to an arbitrator only for suspensions of 12 games or more. All other appeals of suspensions and fines go to Commissioner David Stern.

¶A push for increased pension benefits.

The union views its proposal, which was delivered July 1, as a starting point for negotiations. But Hunter said the league had yet to respond to it.

Instead, Stern is standing by the proposal he made in January, which includes a 38 percent reduction in player salaries (about $800 million), a rollback of existing salaries, a hard salary cap, shorter contracts, elimination of all cap exceptions and a major reduction in contract guarantees.

If all of those provisions were adopted, it would represent the most drastic changes to the labor deal since the salary-cap system was adopted in 1984. The players’ proposal retains the same basic structure and attempts merely to build on it.

The union contends that teams can reduce costs without new restrictions, citing a three-year trend of decreasing player salaries. Hunter has dismissed the owners’ proposal as “a nonstarter.”

The current collective bargaining agreement expires next July 1. Principals on both sides are bracing for a lockout. The stark contrast between their proposals explains why.

The owners are claiming annual losses in the hundreds of millions. Their clear, primary goal is cost containment, through new rules to restrict spending. The union’s proposal makes some gestures toward reducing costs but seems more focused on expanding player rights. It also reflects the union’s skepticism toward Stern’s claims of economic distress.

Toward the conclusion of his podcast, Hunter makes his stance clear.

“We will not agree to a hard cap,” he says, “when the league is generating record revenues year after year.”
 
Nothing too outrageous imo

not sure how I feel about dropping the age from 19 to 18 though, yet he whole one and done thing doesnt do anything for the athletes.
 
My opinion, and it's probably one that really isn't that practical is that you either come straight out of high school or you have to stay for 3 years and at least pretend to do some significant work towards a degree so if you bomb, you can return to college and only have to do your final year to get your qualification.

For those coming out of high school, they have to meet with some sort of draft advisory board and are only allowed in if they are graded as a potential lottery pick or can plead exceptional circumstances (My mommies a crack whore and I have to look after 6 brothers and sisters and so on).
 
I actually enjoy watching the one and done freshman in college basketball, because for the most part they bring actual elite talent to college basketball.
 
Thank god. This was a stupid rule from the beginning.

I've always said they should do a system like MLB.

Want to come straight out of high school? That's fine. Want to go to college? Cool, spend 2-3 years there then. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to go out of high school if you don't want to.
 
If you want to watch elite talent, watch the NBA?

That's a pretty weak argument. Obviously in the NBA these 18 year old kids aren't going to display the same level of talent as the talent level is more evened out. In the NBA you won't see an 18 year old kid leading the team in big moments with the pressures that come with it. I like seeing these kids step up (ala Kyrie Irving against Michigan St. or Sullinger against Florida) in big moments.

I like seeing how the elite freshman are going to play in the atmosphere of college basketball and even in the NCAA tournament. I like seeing how a John Wall led Kentucky team is going to play against an experienced West Virginia or Duke team come tournament time. College basketball is a much better product with these elite freshman playing and leading their teams. Having said that I really am not for or against the age limit rule, as I really don't care either way.
 
I hope they don't get rid of the rule. It benefits the NBA, NCAA, and casual NBA fan too much for them to get rid of it.
 
Thank god. This was a stupid rule from the beginning.

I've always said they should do a system like MLB.

Want to come straight out of high school? That's fine. Want to go to college? Cool, spend 2-3 years there then. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to go out of high school if you don't want to.
This. I always felt they should have just went the MLB route instead of the stupid one and done rule.
 
Dropping the age limit is good. College basketball isn't a farm system for the NBA. Plus this will cut down on some of the shady things that happen in cbb now with these 1 year players. Ex: Calipari helping sneak Derrick Rose into college with fake SAT scores or whatever happened.
 
This. I always felt they should have just went the MLB route instead of the stupid one and done rule.

Apples and oranges IMO. There is a lot more money out there for NBA draft picks right away than there is for MLB draft picks. The MLB has a massive amount of rounds so kids have the chance to get drafted in the 47th round and then decide to go back to school. In the NBA there are only two rounds and the payout is generally better. You have to figure a lot of those HS kids would be going in the first round. 9 times out of 10 the kid is going to choose the NBA for no other reason than the money.

If they did get rid of the rule it would be interesting because I think owners and GM's alike would rather take a European youngster playing pro ball over there than risk it on some HS kid. Look at what one season of mostly rising the bench did for Brandon Jennings.

At the end of the day the NBA is a business and it's better for the NBA to have more proven commodities hitting the floor each season. Plus it makes the brand of basketball better in the NCAA and for fans like me I enjoy that more. Even if the guys are one and done. It's easier to make a connection if the guy played in college for a year or more.

I became so uninterested in the NBA for a number of years(in part) because all these guys coming into the league I had no clue who they were. I just couldn't get myself attached to the newer players or the teams in anyways. Even a player like John Wall playing for one season at UK gets him lots of exposure to fans who while they may not like the Wizards(besides Argath who does really?) will follow his NBA career simply because they know who he is.

Watching the Bulls last night I saw Manny Harris on the floor and was like "Oh yeah the guy from Michigan". Having even that little spark of a memory of seeing guys play in college helps to connect with the teams' and NBA's fan base. The NBA is able to better market itself in some ways with kids staying in school a year too. The draft becomes more of a TV event because the people actually know who the hell is being drafted.

It's better for kids too. Go to school. If you flame out there at least you get a free 4 year degree. If you flame out in the NBA you end up more than likely blowing your money and with no degree or job skills.
 
The NBA uses it as a free scouting service and promotional tool.

Don't get it twisted that they are helping these kids get educations. They aren't.

What percentage of first round talents are out of school in 1-2 years anyway? Remember the rule isn't about staying 4 years, you only have to be 19 and 1 year removed from high school. Most big talents are one and done.

And do you really think the Derrick Rose and John Wall's of the world benefited academically by having a year of college under their belt (I can't imagine Rose even went to class). If they flamed out in the NBA they wouldn't have any more benefits from their year of "education" than if they went straight out of high school.
 
The NBA uses it as a free scouting service and promotional tool.
So? The kids can use the NCAA just the same and improve their draft stock.

Plus where do you draw the line? The NFL uses the NCAA the same way and no one really cares.

Don't get it twisted that they are helping these kids get educations. They aren't.
Then that's the kids fault. Not the NBA's. The opportunity is there if they want it. I'm not saying the NBA directly is but it's an opportunity that arises from the rule.

What percentage of first round talents are out of school in 1-2 years anyway?
Not sure. Ask Lefty?
Remember the rule isn't about staying 4 years
Gee. Thanks for that newsflash.......?

Most big talents are one and done.
And?

That really doesn't mean anything in regards to what I posted?

And do you really think the Derrick Rose and John Wall's of the world benefited academically by having a year of college under their belt
That's not what I said/implied. Not sure how you can ask that question based upon what I posted.

If they flamed out in the NBA they wouldn't have any more benefits from their year of "education" than if they went straight out of high school.

Read the second to last sentence of my post again and please explain to me how you got that from what I posted?

Seriously Fed?
 
I disagree greatly with this statement.

So you disagree with part of the reason why I, personally, in part lost interest in the NBA.

Wow. We are off to tremendous start here.......


Playing for one year at UK gets him lots of exposure?
Yes.

Was this a serious question?

The reason he got exposure was because he was a rare talent.
:obama:
No, that only part of the reason. Obviously Wall had some exposure before he set foot on UK's campus but it's retarded to think him playing on CBS or ESPN once or twice a week didn't drastically increase his exposure to both the college basketball fan base and the NBA fan base who wasn't trolling Youtube and Rivals for grainy high school footage.

God knows Melo's one season didn't net him any added exposure....

Jesus H Christ.

LeBron had no problem getting exposure.

Kobe had no problem getting exposure.
Again...see above post.

Obviously they had some level of exposure. But not the same level to fans that they would have had if they had gone to school. You're telling me Lebron and Kobe had equal exposure playing high school basketball as they would have had playing even one year at a big time college?

You're either severely retarded or compeltely missed my point. I'm thinking it could be a combination of both.

How is Kyrie Irving playing for Duke and being known by people who follow Duke any different than someone playing for the Timberwolves, and being known by people who follow them? What's the difference in saying "Oh, that's Kyrie Irving, the kid who played for Duke" and "Oh that's Kyrie Irving, the kid who was drafted by the Timberwolves"

Wow.

Talk about missing the fucking point by a mile.

Hint: I don't "follow" Michigan...yet I still know who Manny Harris is.

The entire point...again.

Watching a player for even one year in college on national TV or seeing highlights on a consistent basis allows fans(of any team) to make a connection or a memory of a certain player. The NBA becomes an easier league for the fan (especially the casual one) to follow if there are more players they recognize coming into the league. Players they know about and feel like they know a bit of the history of. No one was saying that these kids don't have some level of exposure at the high school level but playing even one year in college exposes them to tons more fans of both college and the NBA.



Apples and Oranges. Brah.
That expression doesn't even apply here faggot.
 
These guys would hate me as NBA president.
I'd insist four years of college.
Or four years in Europe if you're too stupid for college.
I preferred NCAA Basketball when it had compelling talent (in the 80s).

That said, I would also insist on the NCAA paying players. The NCAA can afford to pay them.
There can be tiers of pay.

So few 18-year-olds actually belong in the NBA, make em earn it.
 
I have to agree with FT, here. College ball helps give us a buffer and a chance to get to know rookie ballers before they hit the league. The NBA was awful from a fan's perspective when the draft's first round had 10 high school kids going every year.

Pretty miserable watching a draft when you haven't even seen half the kids play. See the 2004 draft for a good example.
 
I disagree greatly with this statement.

Playing for one year at UK gets him lots of exposure? The reason he got exposure was because he was a rare talent. LeBron had no problem getting exposure. Kobe had no problem getting exposure. Obviously Kobe had the advantage of playing in LA, where everything is under a spotlight. But LeBron became one of the most known athletes in the world, playing out of... Ohio? How is Kyrie Irving playing for Duke and being known by people who follow Duke any different than someone playing for the Timberwolves, and being known by people who follow them? What's the difference in saying "Oh, that's Kyrie Irving, the kid who played for Duke" and "Oh that's Kyrie Irving, the kid who was drafted by the Timberwolves"

?

Apples and Oranges. Brah.

IMO you're looking at this from your own perspective and taking for granted that everyone doesn't pay attention to the highschool basketball scene. I follow highschool basketball pretty intently and pretty much know the "scouting report" on most of the top highschool basketball players coming into college. However, everyone doesn't do this. To say a Kyrie Irving would recieve as much national attention playing for a sorry Timberwolves team that isn't even on television as compared to him playing for and leading Duke Basketball on CBS and ESPN every week is comical.
 
So? The kids can use the NCAA just the same and improve their draft stock.

Plus where do you draw the line? The NFL uses the NCAA the same way and no one really cares.

Then that's the kids fault. Not the NBA's. The opportunity is there if they want it. I'm not saying the NBA directly is but it's an opportunity that arises from the rule.

Not sure. Ask Lefty?

Gee. Thanks for that newsflash.......?

And?

That really doesn't mean anything in regards to what I posted?

That's not what I said/implied. Not sure how you can ask that question based upon what I posted.

Read the second to last sentence of my post again and please explain to me how you got that from what I posted?

Seriously Fed?

...You're missing my general point though

I'm not arguing with you about the general benefits of doing it. I understand it's a good promotional tool. I understand fans who watch college can make a connection.

I just don't think the NBA has any right to force people to follow it. If you want to take the risk of going from high school to the pros, then by all means take that risk. There's been more guys to successfully make the transition than ones that haven't.

That's all. I get it, I understand you know who Manny Harris is. I understand that guys can improve their draft stock, but if you feel you can make the transition than I feel the NBA shouldn't stop you under the facade that they are helping you get a free education.
 
I just don't think the NBA has any right to force people to follow it.
The NBA is a business. It can set what are essentially it's hiring practices as what they want. Legally it's allowable and ins ome ways the same as certain jobs requiring bachelor degrees or job experience in a certain area. It's really no different in the grand scheme of it all.

Playing in the NBA is a privilage. Not a right.

If you want to take the risk of going from high school to the pros, then by all means take that risk. There's been more guys to successfully make the transition than ones that haven't.
Disagree. Go back through all the drafts and look at HS players coming out. guys like KG, Kobe, Lebron are the exception. Yeah they turned out to be great players but lots more have fallen by the wayside or turned into pretty big disappointments in the NBA.

That's all. I get it, I understand you know who Manny Harris is. I understand that guys can improve their draft stock, but if you feel you can make the transition than I feel the NBA shouldn't stop you under the facade that they are helping these kids get educations.

That's not the only "facade" they are using. And I wouldn't catagorize it as a "facade" because:

1. It's possible that if the kid flames out in school he can still get the education. I think that being a by product of the NBA's rule is both by design and a good thing.

2.It's not the only reason the NBA is doing. I will fully admit it's a business decision by the NBA...but a very good one. Having more well known proven commodities on the floor is good for both the on court product and the fan base.
 
The "high school era" of the NBA Draft was bad for everybody involved. The GM's fell in love with shitty flameouts, the shitty flameouts are flipping burgers somewhere, the NBA fans had to watch the shitty flameouts play and suffer through awful drafts full of no names and euros, and the college fans missed out on having better players on the floor. No one wins.

Players like Kobe & LeBron are few and far between. Make these kids go to school for a few years, it benefits everyone.
 
Disagree. Go back through all the drafts and look at HS players coming out. guys like KG, Kobe, Lebron are the exception. Yeah they turned out to be great players but lots more have fallen by the wayside or turned into pretty big disappointments in the NBA.

The "high school era" of the NBA Draft was bad for everybody involved. The GM's fell in love with shitty flameouts, the shitty flameouts are flipping burgers somewhere, the NBA fans had to watch the shitty flameouts play and suffer through awful drafts full of no names and euros, and the college fans missed out on having better players on the floor. No one wins.

Players like Kobe & LeBron are few and far between. Make these kids go to school for a few years, it benefits everyone.

(Thank god there's a Wikipedia page)

Since 1995, I bolded those I'd consider real big flameouts or disappointments

1995 Kevin Garnett
1996 Kobe Bryant
1996 Jermaine O'Neal
1997 Tracy McGrady
1998 Al Harrington
1998 Rashard Lewis
1998 Korleone Young
1999 Jonathan Bender
1999 Leon Smith
2000 Darius Miles
2000 DeShawn Stevenson
2001 Kwame Brown
2001 Tyson Chandler
2001 Eddy Curry
2001 DeSagana Diop
2001 Ousmane Cisse
2002 Amar'e Stoudemire
2003 LeBron James
2003 Travis Outlaw - although he signed a nice deal this offseason
2003 Ndudi Ebi
2003 Kendrick Perkins
2003 James Lang
2004 Dwight Howard
2004 Shaun Livingston
2004 Robert Swift
2004 Sebastian Telfair
2004 Al Jefferson
2004 Josh Smith
2004 J. R. Smith
2004 Dorell Wright
2005 Martell Webster
2005 Andrew Bynum
2005 Gerald Green
2005 C. J. Miles
2005 Ricky Sánchez
2005 Monta Ellis
2005 Louis Williams
2005 Andray Blatche
2005 Amir Johnson

The good majority of that list has carved out either a semi-long, semi-decent NBA career. You can argue what they would've benefited from at college but by and the large the unbolded guys have made a good amount of money and are either still in the NBA or had semi-relevant careers.

I also underlined some borderline guys.
 
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