Rondo the most overrated player in the league today?

[Loco]

This has always bugged me as a Celtics fan I feel like Rondo gets way too much credit and is highly overrated by the Boston Media and ESPN. Specifically ever since that 1st round series against the Bulls in 08/09 when Rondo averaged nearly a triple double ESPN and Celtics fanboys have been trying legitimize him as a top 5 PG. For instance comparing him to Chris Paul, Deron Williams while in Utah, Steve Nash even Rose and Westbrook. Meanwhile the likes of Tony Parker and Kyrie Irving get overlooked.

Rondo is not a top point guard, people may say hes a pure point guard and one of the few pass first guards in the league. Ok smart guy, you win hes a pure point guard who passes first whooped de fucking do, the game of basketball has evolved beyond pure passing guards. *Claps* And to the people who use this arguement to criticize scoring guards like D.Rose, Westbrook guess what a bucket is more valuable than an assist. Congrats to Rondo who can rack up 20 assist yet can't shoot above 60% from the line or make 3's.


Heres what irks me most, the Celtics are 4-0 since Rondo went down. They are something like 25-13 over the past four years without Rondo yet everyone tries to sugar coat this shit "The Celtics are not a better team without Rondo, they're just currently playing better now without him." think of what your saying. They are not better but they play better with him off the court, look at the facets of his game he looks to pass first beyond anything else, he gambles way too much, refuses to improve his free throws, can't make 3's not even to keep you honest. In an era of basketball that is all about making threes.


People are infatuated with his numbers, triple doubles and tons of assists. Well first of all hes on a terrible rebounding team so boards will come easy, the Celtics have been consistently one of the worst rebounding teams over the last 4 years. Secondly he is obsessed with assists if you followed the Celtics during his infamous "10 or more assist streak record" you would know he would pass up wide open lay ups or easy transition baskets just so he could hit the trailer or find someone in the corner for a potential 3.


Finally I will say Rondo is talented of course, you know who else is Josh Smith. That dude has talent coming out of his ass but just like Rondo he is a selfish headcase that just doesn't "get it" there is more to sports than just being talented or racking up stats for stats sake. Neither of these guys play basketball the right way. Rondo is no Chris Paul, he's not the best at his position he isnt even top 5. Never has been and never will, sure hes gonna rack up stats but his one and only championship will be off the backs of Ray Allen, KG and Pierce. I feel bad for any team who considers Rondo the best player on the team.



Anyways thats my rant, I fucking hate that the Celtics havent traded this guy already I feel like his value has gone down every year because of his stupid antics like getting suspended for fighting with Humphries or bumping into Refs.

 

[DoubleDeuce]

Rondo is great, but yeah he's definitely overrated.

Unless it's the playoffs or ABC Sunday

 

[FedEx227]

Without question. See chatbox discussion Friday afternoon.

The fact that people even have to think for a second if they'd take Rondo or Russell Westbrook just shows how overvalued he is. He's a player that derives all (ALL) of his value off his teammates and while that's cool to have sometimes, it doesn't rank you amongst the best in the league.

 

[Pitty]

Without question. See chatbox discussion Friday afternoon.

The fact that people even have to think for a second if they'd take Rondo or Russell Westbrook just shows how overvalued he is. He's a player that derives all (ALL) of his value off his teammates and while that's cool to have sometimes, it doesn't rank you amongst the best in the league.

I think if you take age out of the question, that's a legitimate argument, they're polar opposites. Rondo is a true Point Guard who only shoots about 10 times a game and is pass first. Westbrook on the other hand looks like his basketball IQ is zero at times, but is a much better scorer albeit with sometimes questionable selection. Both are ballhawks on defense, but offensively which one I would choose is solely dependent on the team.

 

[ralaw]

I'd take Rondo over Westbrook. I've seen too many 6-25 games from Westbrook. Rondo can actually score, but on the Celts he doesn't need to score as much. I think Rondo is a top 5 PG.

The Celtics are 4-0 since Rond went down. I'll give you that the Miami game was a good win, but they then played Sacramento, Orlando and a Chris Paul-less Clippers team. Meh.

 

[Glenbino]

Why would the Celtics trade away one of the best contracts in basketball when the rest of their assets are aging and/or going to be FAs with the exception of Bradley and Sullinger?

Maybe Rondo isn't a top 5 PG but I think the Celtics are getting more than what they pay for.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Pitty]

Why would the Celtics trade away one of the best contracts in basketball when the rest of their assets are aging and/or going to be FAs with the exception of Bradley and Sullinger?

Maybe Rondo isn't a top 5 PG but I think the Celtics are getting more than what they pay for.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

Disagree, in a league where too many PG's think they are shooting guards, Rondo is one of the few remaining true PG's.

 

[FedEx227]

What does that even mean? Why do we insist our PG are pass-first? Would you rather Kyrie Irving look to dish the ball to Dion Waiters and Alonzo Gee? Do we really pine for Chris Paul to give Willie Green more looks? Who cares if they are pass-first or looking to score? Most scoring PG are still incredibly good passers, we aren't talking about any Iverson-lites. Westbrook is a great passer and the threat of his offense opens up the guys around him. Westbrook's averaging 8 assists per game this year, playing top notch defense AND scoring 22 points per game but we still want to take the guy who passes up layups for assists?

Mind boggling.

I'll never understand the pining for ultra talented short guys to pass more and stop scoring even though they are incredibly good at both.

 

[ralaw]

What does that even mean? Why do we insist our PG are pass-first? Would you rather Kyrie Irving look to dish the ball to Dion Waiters and Alonzo Gee? Do we really pine for Chris Paul to give Willie Green more looks? Who cares if they are pass-first or looking to score? Most scoring PG are still incredibly good passers, we aren't talking about any Iverson-lites. Westbrook is a great passer and the threat of his offense opens up the guys around him. Westbrook's averaging 8 assists per game this year, playing top notch defense AND scoring 22 points per game but we still want to take the guy who passes up layups for assists?

Mind boggling.

For me it isn't about being scorer or pass first PG, but instead just the fact that Westbrook really isn't efficient and while his assist are up they aren't really impactful....they tend to come because he dominates the ball so much. It sounds cliche, but I can't say that he actually makes his teammates better or want to play better or harder.

 

[FedEx227]

For me it isn't about being scorer or pass first PG, but instead just the fact that Westbrook really isn't efficient and while his assist are up they aren't really impactful....they tend to come because he dominates the ball so much. It sounds cliche, but I can't say that he actually makes his teammates better or want to play better or harder.

I just don't think that's true. Obviously this is a small sample size but the site Hoopchalk.com does a great job showing you what Westbrook means to a defense with some specific plays. It's narrative to say he just shoots and doesn't help, but there's no surprise that he's averaging a career high assists and guys like Ibaka are emerging under him.

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/12/05/thunder-flip-the-script-with-westbrook-hand-off-play/

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/11/09/how-the-thunder-took-out-the-bulls/

 

[Pitty]

I just don't think that's true. Obviously this is a small sample size but the site Hoopchalk.com does a great job showing you what Westbrook means to a defense with some specific plays. It's narrative to say he just shoots and doesn't help, but there's no surprise that he's averaging a career high assists and guys like Ibaka are emerging under him.

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/12/05/thunder-flip-the-script-with-westbrook-hand-off-play/

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/11/09/how-the-thunder-took-out-the-bulls/

Come on guys, his 41% field goal percentage draws the other teams defenders away, so he really averages like 13 assists!

:dd:

 

[FedEx227]

^ Watches a lot of NBA.

 

[Pitty]

^ Watches a lot of NBA.

And Ibaka's emergence and Westbrook's assists going up having nothing to do with the extra minutes afforded by Harden's departure? No coach has ever said, "hey we'll let the bad shooter shoot more, because we can have a 50% chance at a rebound".

 

[FedEx227]

Westbrook's assists leading to points at the rim are up from 2.2 last year to 3.8 this year, so I'd imagine Serge is probably getting some benefit from that (getting almost 1 attempt more per game at the rim) considering he's usually running baseline during most of Westbrook's drives.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Russell Westbrook

 

[ralaw]

I just don't think that's true. Obviously this is a small sample size but the site Hoopchalk.com does a great job showing you what Westbrook means to a defense with some specific plays. It's narrative to say he just shoots and doesn't help, but there's no surprise that he's averaging a career high assists and guys like Ibaka are emerging under him.

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/12/05/thunder-flip-the-script-with-westbrook-hand-off-play/

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/11/09/how-the-thunder-took-out-the-bulls/

I didn't read all of the information that you you posted but it appears that they are highlighting Coach Brooks' plays that put the players in better position to score. While that helps Westbrook is still very inefficient. He is a good player, but I actually think he is overrated.

 

[Pitty]

Wouldn't you expect a player to get at least one more scoring opp a game if he's playing 5 extra minutes a game and a 20 point scorer is removed from the lineup?

 

[FedEx227]

Brooks is putting the Thunder in great places but those are just a few of the plays that show the impact Westbrook's offense has on OKC's offense. The particular play in question (which the Thunder run quite often, just saw it a few more times last week) all but forces the defense to bring 4 defenders over to Westbrook which allows for a kickout or an easy at the rim shot for Ibaka.

No Westbrook isn't going to throw an assist from the top of the key to a driving guy through someones legs but the little movements he does are what make him so valuable. He's an inefficient direct scorer (something he absolutely needs to work on) but to ignore or underrated the impact he makes on OKC's offense is just unfair.

 

[Pitty]

Brooks is putting the Thunder in great places but those are just a few of the plays that show the impact Westbrook's offense has on OKC's offense. The particular play in question (which the Thunder run quite often, just saw it a few more times last week) all but forces the defense to bring 4 defenders over to Westbrook which allows for a kickout or an easy at the rim shot for Ibaka.

No Westbrook isn't going to throw an assist from the top of the key to a driving guy through someones legs but the little movements he does are what make him so valuable. He's an inefficient direct scorer (something he absolutely needs to work on) but to ignore or underrated the impact he makes on OKC's offense is just unfair.

I understand this, but again, more minutes and less scoring options don't lead to more opportunities?

 

[FedEx227]

Wouldn't you expect a player to get at least one more scoring opp a game if he's playing 5 extra minutes a game and a 20 point scorer is removed from the lineup?

He's getting 3 more shots per game than he was when Harden was in there. 2 of those are 18-23 footers and the other 1 is a play at the rim. I was just highlighting the synergy of Westbrook suddenly having more assists leading to buckets at the rim and Ibaka's rise as well. Take it however you want.

You can say a 22 point per game guy that has elite speed and driving ability doesn't have an impact on his big men getting more open opportunities at the rim due to a collapsing defense, but that's your prerogative.

 

[FedEx227]

I understand this, but again, more minutes and less scoring options don't lead to more opportunities?

Of course they do, but why make the argument that linear? We're big boys and we have tools to go deeper than that.

Look at where their shots are coming from and look at where the assists are coming from. It's impossible to argue that Westbrook's driving ability is giving his teammates more opportunities around the rim (the biggest beneficiary being Ibaka)