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Slam's 500 Greatest NBA Players.

Senser81 said:
I guess the other guys in the top 10 weren't phenomenal, either. Just Shaq.

I'm not comparing Shaq to Danny Schayes. I'm comparing Shaq to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc. Shaq was definitely a great player, but would anyone really want Shaq on their team over an all-around guy like Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?

This comparison might not be exact because Shaq played longer than Bird, but their per-game averages are telling:


Regular season

Shaq - 23.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.5 ast, 0.4 stl, 1.1 blk
Bird - 24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.9 blk


Postseason

Shaq - 24.4 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.7 ast
Bird - 23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.5 ast
Click to expand...

Im comparing Shaq to other big men, which is why he should be lower. I think the dream is better then him, I think Ewing, Duncan, Wilt, Kareem, Robinson were are all better then Shaq

And i agree, refs tuen players into SuperStars. Lamar Odem was suppose to the be the next coming of Christ and I think he was a bust for all the hype they surrounded him with.
 
ralaw said:
Olajuwon was a much more beautiful player to watch, but that doesn't equate to him being better or more dominant. Shaq's numbers, rings, and influence on the game don't lie. Shaq used what he had and dominated with it........I don't know what more you want. Downgrading him because he didn't develop the all around game like Olajuwon doesn't make much sense to me. Also, I've never understood the argument that he simply backed people down and dunked.......Shaq's game wasn't that simple...I understand that is the image of him, but his game was far more skilled then that.
Click to expand...

I'm not looking at the numbers. And it's just my opinion. But watching him play, he had ONE move for much of his career. Offensive foul, dunk. He just never got called for it. That's why I had the comment that he, more than any other player, benefited from the Refs helping make Super Stars.

If you go by just stats, w/o having watched him play, then it's a no brainier. But, watching him play, I was never overly impressed with his skills. My opinion, and I don't pretend to follow Basketball like you do and some others, so it's just my opinion, Olajuwon was much better.
.
 
bucky said:
I'm not looking at the numbers. And it's just my opinion. But watching him play, he had ONE move for much of his career. Offensive foul, dunk. He just never got called for it. That's why I had the comment that he, more than any other player, benefited from the Refs helping make Super Stars.

If you go by just stats, w/o having watched him play, then it's a no brainier. But, watching him play, I was never overly impressed with his skills. My opinion, and I don't pretend to follow Basketball like you do and some others, so it's just my opinion, Olajuwon was much better.
.
Click to expand...

I just remember watching some of Shaq's dominant performaces in the playoffs. Regardless of how he produced that fact is that he produced and that it what I look at. IMO because of his size, athleticism and pure power people tend to look at Shaq as a Goliath to the rest of the leagues' David and they downgrade him and I don't agree with that, because as I said he has the stats, big performances and championships to back up his ability and in the end that is what is supposed to be what matters.
 
ralaw said:
Shaq's game wasn't that simple...I understand that is the image of him, but his game was far more skilled then that.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Shaq was a bully but when he was younger he had great feet for a big man. He didn't have the all around moves that some other guys did but he was ridiculously athletic in the block for a guy his size. And somewhat in defense of Shaq he never really had to leave the 5-8 foot area around the basket because he was so effective down there due to his size. He never fully developed his game because he never had to. That being said, I don't think he could have done it if he had wanted to/been forced to, but that's obviously speculation.

manchild24 said:
Im comparing Shaq to other big men, which is why he should be lower. I think the dream is better then him, I think Ewing, Duncan, Wilt, Kareem, Robinson were are all better then Shaq

.
Click to expand...
On that list you have I would only put Hakeem, Wilt, and Kareem over him. IMO Shaq was better than Ewing and D. Robinson.
 
Senser81 said:
I'm not comparing Shaq to Danny Schayes. I'm comparing Shaq to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc. Shaq was definitely a great player, but would anyone really want Shaq on their team over an all-around guy like Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?
Click to expand...

I'd take a prime Shaq over any player to ever play in the league outside of maybe Jordan and I'd have to really consider that. IMO there is no stopping him, so I don’t understand why a person would want to add some well rounded perimeter players who didn’t play defense. Magic and Bird were gifted on the offensive end though, but I’d take the dominant big over them. Well roundedness on offense is great and makes for enjoyable basketball and I enjoy guys like Magic, Bird, LeBron, etc, but as I said, I’d rather take a dominant big over a well rounded offensive perimeter player, because I feel the game of basketball is built for that (Jordan being the exception).
 
ralaw said:
I'd take a prime Shaq over any player to ever play in the league outside of maybe Jordan and I'd have to really consider that. IMO there is no stopping him, so I don’t understand why a person would want to add some well rounded perimeter players who didn’t play defense. Magic and Bird were gifted on the offensive end though, but I’d take the dominant big over them. Well roundedness on offense is great and makes for enjoyable basketball and I enjoy guys like Magic, Bird, LeBron, etc, but as I said, I’d rather take a dominant big over a well rounded offensive perimeter player, because I feel the game of basketball is built for that.
Click to expand...

I think we are eventually going to agree to disagree on this win. I don't think Shaq was all that dominant of a rebounder or a defender, he was "just" a great scorer. Maybe I downgrade Shaq because he is so hard to compare to. The only person that comes to mind is a young Moses Malone. Shaq's best rebounding year, unsurprisingly, was his rookie year with 13.9 rpg. His best scoring year was with the Lakers mid-career, averaging 29.7 ppg. Moses Malone's last year with the Rockets he averaged 31.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg.

'Nuff said (?)
 
Senser81 said:
I guess the other guys in the top 10 weren't phenomenal, either. Just Shaq.

I'm not comparing Shaq to Danny Schayes. I'm comparing Shaq to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc. Shaq was definitely a great player, but would anyone really want Shaq on their team over an all-around guy like Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?

This comparison might not be exact because Shaq played longer than Bird, but their per-game averages are telling:


Regular season

Shaq - 23.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.5 ast, 0.4 stl, 1.1 blk
Bird - 24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.9 blk


Postseason

Shaq - 24.4 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.7 ast
Bird - 23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.5 ast
Click to expand...

Definitely, I see what you're saying and I hate doing the whole "take out his last few years" thing... but if you eliminate Shaq's last 3-4 years and 3-4 playoff runs where he's an injured late 30s fat ass his overall numbers do look a lot less dominant.

From 97 to 2003, he was averaging 26+ every single playoff year (including 3 years with 30+) as well as two seasons with 15 rebounds and the rest with 10+.
 
Senser81 said:
I think we are eventually going to agree to disagree on this win. I don't think Shaq was all that dominant of a rebounder or a defender, he was "just" a great scorer. Maybe I downgrade Shaq because he is so hard to compare to. The only person that comes to mind is a young Moses Malone. Shaq's best rebounding year, unsurprisingly, was his rookie year with 13.9 rpg. His best scoring year was with the Lakers mid-career, averaging 29.7 ppg. Moses Malone's last year with the Rockets he averaged 31.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg.

'Nuff said (?)
Click to expand...

That is true, he was very much a mediocre rebounder outside of some early 2000 playoff series where he led the playoffs in rebounding.
 
Senser81 said:
I think we are eventually going to agree to disagree on this win. I don't think Shaq was all that dominant of a rebounder or a defender, he was "just" a great scorer. Maybe I downgrade Shaq because he is so hard to compare to. The only person that comes to mind is a young Moses Malone. Shaq's best rebounding year, unsurprisingly, was his rookie year with 13.9 rpg. His best scoring year was with the Lakers mid-career, averaging 29.7 ppg. Moses Malone's last year with the Rockets he averaged 31.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg.

'Nuff said (?)
Click to expand...

Yeah, in the end (especially with Shaq) it comes down to preference.

I will admit that I do think Shaq got progressively lazy as his career went along. Had he taken the time to develop his skills futher, take better care of his body and focus on basketball he probably would be in an argument for the GOAT with Jordan and Wilt. However, IMO even with his negatives its impressive that he could be in the argument for top 10 all-time.

I still get chuckles watching a prime Olajuwon abuse a young Shaq in the finals though. I sort of wish Shaq would have had the dominant big to go against, because I think it would have made him work harder. After the loss to the Rockets I remember Shaq saying that Olajuwon dominanting him made him want to work harder.
 
Yeah my argument isn't talent based at all, just a question I guess of "greatest" to be fair I'm being a little hypocritical if I put Wilt ahead of Russell because I think he was a better player while Russell won more.

As Senser said, it's really not a huge deal because it's between the 10-15 greatest NBA players of all time so it's really splitting hairs after MJ.
 
ralaw said:
I will admit that I do think Shaq got progressively lazy as his career went along. .
Click to expand...

This. I never understood Shaq, and those around him and the teams he was on letting himself baloon up to 400lbs + during the late to early 2000's. I think it ended up taking years off his career and very productive ones at that.

Obviously with players this great we are all splitting hairs and I think a great case could be made for Shaq being in the Top 10 of all time but Top 5 to me is still a stretch.
 
ralaw said:
he has the stats, big performances and championships to back up his ability and in the end that is what is supposed to be what matters.
Click to expand...

We agree on this. I just think his performances were more artificially created with how the refs called the games. If they would have called the games correctly, I don't think Shaq lasts 5 minutes. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just giving my opinion and saying we disagree. So, I'm not saying I'm right, just giving my opinion.
 
Everyone should pick up the magazine.. the top 20-50 isnt too bad, but the list in general was pretty poorly constructed. You'll be saying "how is this guy infront of this guy 100 spots back" very often.
 
According to the link in the OP, Mike Miller is like #431 on that list. Anything over 2,000 is too high for him IMO.
 
Heres the list..

500-301

 
301. Swen Nater
302. Rashard Lewis
303. Satch Sanders
304. Sam Lacey
305. "Downtown" Fred Brown
306. Elmore Smith
307. Joe Barry Carroll
308. Sam Perkins
309. Dick Barnett
310. Sean Elliott
311. Dick Van Arsdale
312. Tom Van Arsdale
313. Slick Watts
314. Tom Meschery
315. Theo Ratliff
316. Kenny Anderson
317. Wayman Tisdale
318. Ray Williams
319. Lionel Hollins
320. Danny Ainge
321. Kenny Smith
322. Fred Carter
323. Gerald Wallace
324. Caron Butler
325. Allan Houston
326. Byron Scott
327. Ron Harper
328. Luke Jackson
329. Lionel Simmons
330. Greg Ballard
331. Arvydas Sabonis
332. Danny Granger
333. Andre Iguodala
334. Michael Adams
335. Billy Knight
336. Ben Gordon
337. Jay Vincent
338. Kevin Willis
339. Jim Chones
340. Vinnie Johnson
341. Roy Tarpley
342. Vin Baker
343. Darryl Dawkins
344. Jim Jackson
345. Nick Anderson
346. Jameer Nelson
347. Al Jefferson
348. Rodney McCray
349. Paul Pressey
350. Muggsy Bogues
351. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf
352. Campy Russell
353. Monta Ellis
354. Nate "Sweetwater" Clifton
355. Robert Horry
356. Steve Smith
357. Tayshaun Prince
358. Sherman Douglas
359. Walt Hazzard
360. Chuck Person
361. Armon Gilliam
362. John Johnson
363. Jalen Rose
364. Scott Skiles
365. Flynn Robinson
366. Ricky Sobers
367. Mike Bantom
368. Ricky Pierce
369. John Shumate
370. Derek Fisher
371. John Starks
372. Antonio McDyess
373. Stephen Jackson
374. Larry Drew
375. Juwan Howard
376. Richard Jefferson
377. Vern Fleming
378. Steve Stipanovich
379. Mark Eaton
380. Jason Terry
381. Johnny Dawkins
382. Hersey Hawkins
383. Mychal Thompson
384. Mike Newlin
385. Ray Felix
386. Kevin Loughery
387. Dick Garmaker
388. Lloyd Neal
389. Lonnie Shelton
390. Larry "Mr. Mean" Smith
391. Pooh Richardson
392. Nate McMillian
393. Corey Maggette
394. Junior Bridgeman
395. ML Carr
396. Woody Sauldsberry
397. Steve Johnson
398. Jim Washington
399. Vernon Maxwell
400. Michael Cage

401. Quentin Richardson
402. Kermit Washington
403. Derrick McKey
404. Keith Van Horn
405. Cedric Ceballos
406. Michael Brooks
407. Dale Davis
408. Antonio Davis
409. Christian Laettner
410. Ken Norman
411. Thurl Bailey
412. Mike Woodson
413. Al Harrington
414. Andrew Bogut
415. Kenny Carr
416. Don Kojis
417. Ron Behagen
418. Luol Deng
419. Brian Grant
420. James Edwards
421. Tyrone Hill
422. Jerome Kersey
423. John "Hot Rod" Williams
424. Ernie DiGregorio
425. Johnny Davis
426. Arlen Bockhorn
427. Don Nelson
428. Troy Murphy
429. Al Attles
430. Curtis Rowe
431. Mike Miller
432. Eddie Miles
433. Roy Hinson
434. Herm Gilliam
435. Adrian Smith
436. Rex Chapman
437. Andrei Kirilenko
438. David Greenwood
439. BJ Armstrong
440. Jamal Crawford
441. Quintin Dailey
442. Jim Paxson
443. Spud Webb
444. Shane Battier
445. Albert King
446. Gerald Wilkins
447. Sam Bowie
448. Charles Smith
449. Josh Howard
450. Dell Curry
451. Zaid Abdul-Aziz
452. Emeka Okafor
453. Kelvin Ransey
454. Hedo Turkoglu
455. Kevin Martin
456. Eric Money
457. Jason Williams
458. David Lee
459. Kerry Kittles
460. Kendall Gill
461. Devin Harris
462. Wally Szczerbiak
463. Grant Long
464. Billy Owens
465. LaPhonso Ellis
466. Jay Humphries
467. Tree Rollins
468. Don Buse
469. Wali Jones
470. Larry Hughes
471. Marvin Webster
472. John McGlocklin
473. Clem Haskins
474. Gar Heard
475. Terry Catledge
476. Phil Hubbard
477. Bob Kauffman
478. Loy Vaught
479. Dana Barros
480. Mitch Kupchak
481. Elden Campbell
482. Robert Reid
483. Clyde Lee
484. John Long
485. Clifford Ray
486. Manute Bol
487. Joe Graboski
488. Avery Johnson
489. Gene Banks
490. Sarunas Marciulionis
491. Reggie Williams
492. Antoine "Big Dog" Carr
493. Joe Smith
494. PJ Brown
495. Drew Gooden
496. Kevin Duckworth
497. Chris Kaman
498. Cuttino Mobley
499. David Wesley
500. Pervis Ellison
Click to expand...
 
300-101

 
101. Slater Martin
102. Kevin Johnson
103. Brad Daugherty
104. Walter Davis
105. Carmelo Anthony
106. Dan Issel
107. Chris Paul
108. George McGinnis
109. Jamaal Wilkes
110. Chet Walker
111. George Yardley
112. Kevin Porter
113. Rich Guerin
114. Norm Van Lier
115. Willie Naulls
116. Zelmo Beaty
117. Marques Johnson
118. Jo Jo White
119. Jack Sikma
120. Tom Chambers
121. Dick McGuire
122. Maurice Cheeks
123. Ben Wallace
124. Chauncey Billups
125. Bailey Howell
126. Lou Hudson
127. Rudy Tomjanovich
128. Deron Williams
129. Guy Rodgers
130. Penny Hardaway
131. Phil Chenier
132. Charlie Scott
133. Bob Davies
134. Harry Gallatin
135. Maurice Lucas
136. Larry Foust
137. Michael Cooper
138. Paul Silas
139. Tony Parker
140. Ron Artest
141. Paul Westphal
142. Phil Smith
143. Manu Ginobili
144. Amar'e Stoudemire
145. Vern Mikkelsen
146. Rudy LaRusso
147. Johnny "Red" Kerr
148. Terry Cummings
149. Gus Williams
150. Shawn Kemp
151. Horace Grant
152. Shawn Marion
153. Gene Shue
154. Yao Ming
155. Mark Price
156. Rasheed Wallace
157. Calvin Murphy
158. Bobby Wanzer
159. Bobby Jones
160. Mark Jackson
161. Otis Birdsong
162. Johnny Green
163. John Drew
164. Tom Gola
165. Larry Nance
166. Randy Smith
167. Terry Porter
168. Rolando Blackman
169. Andy Phillip
170. Clyde Lovellette
171. Chris Bosh
172. Bill Bradley
173. Larry Johnson
174. Jermaine O'Neal
175. Andrew Toney
176. Reggie Theus
177. Elton Brand
178. KC Jones
179. Jerry Sloan
180. Jamal Mashburn
181. Bob Rule
182. Derrick Coleman
183. Gilbert Arenas
184. Joe Johnson
185. Joe Caldwell
186. Norm Nixon
187. Mark Aguirre
188. Micheal Ray Richardson
189. Archie Clark
190. Jimmy Walker
191. Doug Collins
192. Kiki Vandeweghe
193. Larry Kenon
194. Alvin Robertson
195. Sam Cassell
196. World B. Free
197. Stephon Marbury
198. Fat Lever
199. Baron Davis
200. Bill Bridges

201. Lamar Odom
202. Kelly Tripucka
203. Wayne Embry
204. Mookie Blaylock
205. Alvan Adams
206. Carlos Boozer
207. Don Ohl
208. Marcus Camby
209. Rod Strickland
210. Carl Braun
211. Jeff Malone
212. Danny Manning
213. Charles Oakley
214. Sidney Wicks
215. John Williamson
216. Arnie Risen
217. Cedric Maxwell
218. Darrell Griffith
219. Ray Scott
220. Cazzie Russell
221. Dale Ellis
222. Reggie Lewis
223. Rip Hamilton
224. Michael Redd
225. Peja Stojakovic
226. Latrell Sprewell
227. Derek Harper
228. Steve Francis
229. Mickey Johnson
230. Jason Richardson
231. Purvis Short
232. Orlando Woolridge
233. Austin Carr
234. Max Zaslofsky
235. Bill Laimbeer
236. Antawn Jamison
237. Clark Kellogg
238. Antoine Walker
239. Jim McMillain
240. Len "Truck" Robinson
241. Jeff Ruland
242. AC Green
243. Walter Dukes
244. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
245. Quinn Buckner
246. Glenn Robinson
247. Bruce Bowen
248. Detlef Schrempf
249. Terry Dischinger
250. Toni Kukoc
251. Mike Bibby
252. Ralph Sampson
253. Frank Ramsey
254. Anthony Mason
255. Andre Miller
256. Happy Hairston
257. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
258. Doug Christie
259. Geoff Petrie
260. Rony Seikaly
261. David West
262. Eddie Jones
263. Dan Majerle
264. John Lucas
265. Jeff Hornacek
266. Dan Roundfield
267. Caldwell Jones
268. Brian Winters
269. Otis Thorpe
270. Jack Marin
271. Terrell Brandon
272. Clifford Robinson [90s Blazers version]
273. Zach Randolph
274. Scott Wedman
275. "Bullet" Bob Boozer
276. Rik Smits
277. Vlade Divac
278. Sleepy Floyd
279. Doc Rivers
280. Larry Costello
281. Xavier McDaniel
282. "Fast" Eddie Johnson
283. Eddie Johnson
284. Bill Cartwright
285. Cliff Robinson
286. Kenny Sears
287. Michael Finley
288. Phil Ford
289. Jeff Mullins
290. Mel Hutchins
291. Tom Gugliotta
292. Nick Van Exel
293. Lucius Allen
294. Mike Mitchell
295. Jerry Stackhouse
296. Don Chaney
297. Damon Stoudamire
298. Glen Rice
299. Kenyon Martin
300. Calvin Natt
Click to expand...
 
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