UEFA Champions League

[kyhadley]

I'm hoping we don't draw Napoli or Milan, anyone know when the draw is announced?

 

[Bigpapa42]

The excuses for City I'm reading around the web are already tickling me... "Group of Death"... "inexperienced in Europe"... "first time"... blah blah blah... Why can't people just admit that they underperformed? United fans seem able to do that.

 

[NAHSTE]

The excuses for City I'm reading around the web are already tickling me... "Group of Death"... "inexperienced in Europe"... "first time"... blah blah blah... Why can't people just admit that they underperformed? United fans seem able to do that.

10 points is usually enough to get your through, no?

 

[Champ]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIBTQF9qVl0&feature=share"]Villareal Napoli 0-2 07/12/2011 - Napoli Vincente Dance mix - YouTube[/ame]

 

[calgaryballer]

10 points is usually enough to get your through, no?

Yes. Unfortunately you took six of those points from Villareal, something both Napoli and Bayern also managed to do. 4 points from 12 against Napoli and Bayern are why City is staying at home, and that has to be defined as underperforming

 

[1ke]

2005. Thats the last time this happened. Right after Keano left. And thats all I remember about that year of the CL.

This though, this has been building up. And United tonight got everything they deserve for throwing away games left and right. Their form hasnt been good at all. The only good game from them over the last month and a half was Newcastle. This shit was fucking ridiculous though. Coming out flat, Ashley Young living up to the good ash/bad ash reputation he earned. A CB playing CM, Vida getting hurt, Smalling ball watching for the second. Rooney having one of his worst nights ever.

Plain and simple just a bad night. Unacceptable really. And fuck using injuries as an excuse, fuck that. Zero good comes from this. I hope they all realize what a punishment playing in Thursday nights is.

All United players to a man if they dont know already, should know now. They got exactly what they deserved.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Couldn't have said it better myself, CB. Villarreal are beyond terrible this season and honestly performed as one of the weakest sides in the Group Stage. That makes the whole "10 point" argument kinda invalid.

I've seen people - not even city supporters, either - stating that finishing 3rd should be seen as an achievement. I just can't see that.

 

[Sharkweather]

What a great CL, no matter what else happens from here.

Fuck United.

 

[calgaryballer]

Couldn't have said it better myself, CB. Villarreal are beyond terrible this season and honestly performed as one of the weakest sides in the Group Stage. That makes the whole "10 point" argument kinda invalid.

I've seen people - not even city supporters, either - stating that finishing 3rd should be seen as an achievement. I just can't see that.

LOL my face off. Look, obviously Bayern and Napoli are quality sides. But while Man City are new to the competition, the players and coach are absolutely not.

Lets run thru the lineup (by shirt number per UEFA.com)

Hart - sure, first timer
Kompany - played in the comp with Anderlecht, think he may have with HSV too
Lescott - first timer
Dzeko - played with Wolfsburg I believe
Savic - been there with Partizan
Aguero - Atl Madrid
Barry - first timer
Nasri - with Arsenal and maybe even Marseille
Silva - Valencia
Clichy - Arsenal
Toure - Winner with Barca

Subs
De Jong - with Ajax and perhaps HSV
Balotelli - with Inter
AJ - first time

Coach - Mancini has been there a number of times with Inter

I would argue that Apoel is coming out of a deeper (from 1-4) group than City and they are from fucking Cyprus.

Fortunately for City, the only other team that is as big an epic fail is their neighbours.

And maybe Dortmund Marseille and Arsenal are quality though, and Greek teams are always stubborn fucks

 

[Bigpapa42]

Yeah, the players have a ton of Champions League experience. This is the list of players who have at least a number of Champions League matches under their belt:


Vincent Kompany
Gael Clichy
Kolo Toure
Sergio Augero
Carlos Tevez
Wayne Bridge
Pablo Zabalyeta
Samir Nasri
David Silva
Owen Hargreaves
Mario Balotelli
Edin Dzeko
Nigel de Jong
Yaya Toure

That's over half the squad. And thats not 2-3 matches for most of the players, but 10-plus matches. Aguero actually won the UEFA Cup with Atletico, and Kolarov had some experience in that competition with Lazio. These aren't a bunch of kids. Far far from it.

I've seen Group A described as a "group of death". Really? When Villarreal is terrible and its a 3-team group because of that? And Villarreal is terrible in La Liga this season, so its not a matter of the other three sides being "that good". And Napoli really isn't elite. They're good but not amazing - hence they are well off the Serie A title race already. Bayern are world class and yet not unbeatable either. Now if City had drawn into the group with Barcelona and Milan, I would buy it as a group of death.

Dortmund have much better excuses. They have a squad that really is made up of kids. Half of their starting XI is 23 or under, and that's most of their best players. Yet they came within the final matchday of advancing. If they held on against Marseille and if Arsenal went to Greece for a match instead of a holiday, those kids make it. And that wasn't an easy group either.

 

[1ke]

Dortmund, while I understand fully, I just wish they had advanced as they are a blast to watch. Kagawa = truth. I want him/no homo.

 

[calgaryballer]

Watching the highlights. On the United goal, WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE TOUCHLINE LINESMAN DOING? He is there to make contentious goal line calls and was about to signal goal, but seemed to cower half way through

 

[Rudi]

Disappointing City didn't get through obviously. But knew it was over when they lost to Napoli last round. Not much to do now but continue their winning ways in the Premier league. Silva's goal today was nice tho.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Dortmund, while I understand fully, I just wish they had advanced as they are a blast to watch. Kagawa = truth. I want him/no homo.

Agree. At least on watching Dortmund... Not so much on the Kagawa man-love. He is fun to watch though. Whole team is. They're probably my third-favorite German club (like Hamburg and Leverkusen more) yet I've watched as many Dortmund matches as Arsenal matches this season. More of just how things worked out than anything. But they are certainly enjoyable.

 

[Bigpapa42]

Saw the highlights of the Lyon-Dinamo match. The scoreline is enough to make things seem sketchy. The foul that generated the second yellow card for the Croatian defender didn't seem that nasty, at least on first viewing. And some of the goals... were weak. Defenders just falling down and allowing the Lyon players clean shots at goal.

Then Ajax had two goals that both looked fine disallowed for off-side.

Apparently UEFA has already verified that there were no unusual betting trends. Still, it makes one wonder.

 

[BigHouseUSA]

I've heard some talk that French authorities are investigating, nothing concrete though. The keepers attempt at some of those shots/crosses was pathetic. Also, this picture has been doing the rounds, although could be taken out of context.

 

[1ke]

Saw that match fixing shit on another board recently. How nuts?

Well, apparently United have let it be known how they feel about the Europa League.

This decision means that Season Ticket holders do not have to buy Europa League tickets for matches at Old Trafford.

Also, this is one of the best articles yet about last night....

But United have no mitigating factors. Basel have qualified for the Champions League's second stage only once before and achieved little else in Europe apart from reaching the final of another Uefa creation, the Intertoto Cup, in 2002. The days are gone when Benfica counted as a genuine force and Ferguson cheerfully admitted a few weeks ago he had never heard of Otelul Galati. United did at least beat the Romanians.

Football being such a reflex industry, what we have to guard against here is the classic knee-jerk analysis and remember the end-of-an-empire headlines when United turned another simple-looking Champions League group into a similar ordeal in 2005. Since then, United have won four more league titles, a couple of League Cups and been to three Champions League finals, so think carefully before being tempted to dismiss the club's powers of recovery.

Yet, equally, it is not something that can be passed off as a fluke, a blip, one of those unexplainable things. This has been coming and the real shame was that Roy Keane, bristling with indignation in his television role, restricted his criticisms to the players. Others could easily have been brought into the equation given the financial restrictions that are in place at Old Trafford and the policy of omerta behind the scenes when it comes to the Glazer family.

The truth they do not want you to know at Old Trafford is that in the last five years United's net spend on transfers is a mere £56.9m. Or to put it another way, less than Aston Villa, with £68.2m, Sunderland's £62.7m and Stoke's £61.2m. City have spent £437.1m, Chelsea £144.9m, Liverpool £84m and Spurs £76m.

Many will point out the £50m transfer splurge on Phil Jones, Ashley Young and David de Gea as evidence that the Glazers are not as frugal as portrayed. But even this is not as straightforward as it seems. Ferguson has said himself that the new arrivals were funded because of the considerable savings made from releasing Paul Scholes, Gary Neville, Edwin van der Sar and Owen Hargreaves, each of whom earned around £4m a year. United also made around £10m by selling John O'Shea, Wes Brown and Gabriel Obertan, along with a couple of reserve players, Corry Evans and Joe Dudgeon.

Ferguson wanted to sign at least one category-A midfielder, but the club decided Wesley Sneijder of Internazionale was out of their reach. Samir Nasri was offered more to go to City, where they already had David Silva and Yaya Touré. Luka Modric wanted to leave Tottenham but United left the bidding to Chelsea and, since then, is it really a surprise Ferguson's team look so conspicuously short in midfield? Anderson is too erratic. Michael Carrick is an elegant frustration. Ryan Giggs is 38. Tom Cleverley introduced some thrust and vibrancy at the start of the season but the expectation placed on him surpasses the reality.

Then you go through the rest of the team and it becomes apparent there are other issues, too. Rio Ferdinand has been in decline for longer than he will want to remember. Patrice Evra has also lost form. Nemanja Vidic remains the best at what he does in the business but has now snapped his knee ligaments. At least Phil Jones and Chris Smalling have shown they are capable replacements but Jonny Evans is not even close to becoming the player that had been touted. Likewise, nobody should be particularly confident that Federico Macheda, Darron Gibson and Mame Biram Diouf will ever reach the necessary grade. Wayne Rooney, with nine goals in his first five league matches, has not added to that total since 18 September. Michael Owen has not started a league match since October last year. Dimitar Berbatov has somehow managed to win last season's Golden Boot while losing the trust of his manager. As for the Da Silva twins, their injuries don't come in threes but 33s.

Ferguson felt it necessary to issue a public apology after the Carling Cup quarter-final defeat against Crystal Palace last week, but what United's supporters would really like is an honest, detailed account about what is really happening behind the scenes, why the club have neglected the midfield issue and what happens next.

But it won't happen. Ferguson, never slow to criticise previous regimes about not providing him with greater funds, will not have a bad word said against the Glazers and his press conferences have become such tense, joyless events that nobody should expect him to open up at Carrington on Friday morning. There are rules in place – complex rules whereby difficult questions are not allowed and anybody who pushes the boundaries finds their invite revoked. Tancredi Palmeri, CNN's Italian correspondent, asked Ferguson in his pre-match conference in Basel on Tuesday whether, after leading 2-0, he had made any mistakes in the 3-3 draw against the Swiss side in September. Palmeri was shocked by the reaction, Ferguson staring at him like "ice" while "the press room broke into an 'ooooh.'"

But Ferguson has clearly made mistakes, swapping his players too regularly, tinkering to the point where the team have lost their rhythm. They have not scored more than once in their last seven league games while, at City, Roberto Mancini's team have accumulated 48 in their first 14 league fixtures. That's more than City managed in total in six of their previous 10 top-flight campaigns. In fact, they overtook the 29 that Stuart Pearce's team scored in 2006-07 in only their ninth game.

Ferguson talked last week of Newcastle's success having a direct impact on the bad vibes at Sunderland this season but it is also happening on his own doorstep. From United's perspective, City are turning into a monster, and this is still only the early stage of what they are about to become through Middle Eastern riches. The two teams meet in the third round of the FA Cup on 8 January. City have already won the first derby of the season in what will always be remembered as "the 6-1". If United lose again, there is the potential for some seriously grumpy matches at Old Trafford after the turn of the year.

Ferguson, 70 later this month, is talking about staying for another three or four years before finally giving in to retirement. Then, perhaps, we might get another book and the chance to discover whether there are any grievances about the Glazers that he does not want to share while under their employment. Until then, many at Old Trafford could be forgiven for wondering whether two families with no background in football whatsoever, one from Abu Dhabi and one from Florida, are combining to deny him the happy ending he probably deserves.

 

[calgaryballer]

I hate net spend, especially when looking at the last 5 years. Guess what's included? An £80 million Ronaldo sale. Every year since 06/07 they've bought at least one player who cost 8 figures. The ONLY other English teams who would have been in the market to buy players like Berbatov (£33 mil), Carrick (£24 mil), Anderson/Nani/Hargreaves (each over £20 mil) and Valencia (£16 mil) are Chelsea and City.

Don't give me this shit that United is being outspent by teams like Villa, Sunderland and Stoke. This is a team that spent £8 mil on FUCKING BEBE BECAUSE QUEIROZ LIKED HIM! Teams that actually have budgets don't make that mistake

 

[1ke]

Why are you always so mad? And why out of the whole article did you single out that one paragraph? I thought it was a good article, so I posted it.

 

[calgaryballer]

Perhaps I am, but nothing gets my goat like Manchester United/City/Chelsea fans claiming poverty. Sure, I focused on a paragraph, but that was the base of his whole article. United has been outspent everywhere. They targeted 3 midfielders and missed out on them all, OH NOES! Why there weren't other targets or backup plans when it became extremely clear how the Sneijder/Nasri/Modric deals were going to play out has nothing to do with money.

He laments the lack of striking and defensive cover, and then naming off £40 mil or so of players who apparently can't cut it. Berba hasn't become less talented over night, Fergie just never figured out how to use him.

Only at the very end does the author hit on the real reason, Fergie's excessive tinkering. Injuries in the midfield, squad depth, etc, Man U should still have beaten Basel at least once.