Who was the biggest loser in the NFL Top 100 Discussion?

[Blick]

I don't know...ask Matt Cassel, David Garrard, and Kyle Orton.

KC - 29th in attempts, Jax - 31st in attempts, Den - 7th in attempts

How does Orton fit into this?

 

[Senser81]

KC - 29th in attempts, Jax - 31st in attempts, Den - 7th in attempts

How does Orton fit into this?

If you recall, Orton's 2009 season had him leading the league in passing halfway through the year, even though basically all he did was throw 5-yard hitches to Brandon Marshall and watch Marshall break 3 tackles to gain 15 yards.

I don't understand what you're even arguing (big surprise, huh?). A QB can be highly efficient in a conservative offense. Do you remember when Garrard had like 15 TDs and no INTs during one year? Would you argue that Garrard was in an aggressive offense merely because his TD/INT ratio? Of course not.

Again, what is your point?

 

[Ironworker808]

I don't know...ask Matt Cassel, David Garrard, and Kyle Orton.

I'm now realizing that you aren't really a BigBucs alternate account, but rather a BigBucs troll account. No one could be this clueless...it has to be schtick. Tampa Bay ranked 23rd in the league in pass attempts. I was very clear, and there could have been no other way to interpret my factual comment. For the third time, the Bucs ranked 23rd in pass attempts last year and had only the 20th best offense despite having the 8th most productive rushing offense.

None of those three are in the top 10 in all those categories. But you know who is? No one. You just can't get to the top of the rankings running a 'hide your quarterback' offense.

Josh Freeman, individually, ranked 15th in pass attempts last year. Can that be interpreted any other way?

Yes, we gained enough yards to be ranked eighth. Our scoring production on the ground was good enough for nine TD's. A five way tie for 24th. Only four teams were worse.

The Bucs hid Freeman so much that he only scored 74% of the teams 34 TD's. 43% (15) of those were red zone TD's. Even with the eighth most productive running game in the NFL, the Bucs relied on Freeman's arm to score inside the 20. Those 15 RZ TD's also represent 68% of the Bucs RZ scoring. (22 TD's) Again...just for clarity...this is with having the eighth most productive running game in the league. This is hiding your QB?
What do you think that those percentages will jump up to if they ever decide to 'open up the playbook'?

 

[Senser81]

None of those three are in the top 10 in all those categories. But you know who is? No one.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but thanks for the clarification. You informed me that no one is in the top 10 in all those categories, and you also informed me that of the 3 QBs I mentioned, none of them is in the top 10 in all those categories. Very helpful.

Josh Freeman, individually, ranked 15th in pass attempts last year. Can that be interpreted any other way?

No, YOU were questioning my statistics. You were the one who had his own wacky interpretation on Tampa ranking 23rd in pass attempts. This is a pathetic comeback on your part, quite frankly.

Yes, we gained enough yards to be ranked eighth. Our scoring production on the ground was good enough for nine TD's. A five way tie for 24th. Only four teams were worse.

And?

The Bucs hid Freeman so much that he only scored 74% of the teams 34 TD's. 43% (15) of those were red zone TD's. Even with the eighth most productive running game in the NFL, the Bucs relied on Freeman's arm to score inside the 20. Those 15 RZ TD's also represent 68% of the Bucs RZ scoring. (22 TD's)

Just an FYI, since you seem to be using that same wacky stat site again, Tampa scored 39 TDs last year, not 34. Freeman's passing accounted for 25 of those 39 TDs, which is 64%. And, again, you provide no context to your stats. Matt Cassel's passing accounted for 27 of KC's 44 TDs, which is 61%.

This is hiding your QB?
What do you think that those percentages will jump up to if they ever decide to 'open up the playbook'?

I don't understand why/how the PERCENTAGES would jump up, but here is what I've already said....

Josh Freeman's 25 TD 6 INT was nice, but it was somewhat a product of Tampa's system (and a weak schedule). They still were in the bottom half of the NFL in terms of total offense. Conversely, if you think that Freeman's 25/6 ratio WASN'T a product of Tampa's system, then you should also be wondering why Tampa scored so few points and why Tampa only ranked 23rd in pass attempts since Freeman is so awesome.

 

[Blick]

If you recall, Orton's 2009 season had him leading the league in passing halfway through the year, even though basically all he did was throw 5-yard hitches to Brandon Marshall and watch Marshall break 3 tackles to gain 15 yards.

I don't understand what you're even arguing (big surprise, huh?). A QB can be highly efficient in a conservative offense. Do you remember when Garrard had like 15 TDs and no INTs during one year? Would you argue that Garrard was in an aggressive offense merely because his TD/INT ratio? Of course not.

Again, what is your point?

I don't understand what you are arguing either. We're talking about the 2010 season and you bring up Denver's 2009 offense and highlight the use of a player that wasn't even there last year.

Denver was 7th in pass attempts, 7th in yards, 2nd in 20+ completions, and 3rd in 40+ completions. That is not a conservative offense, unless you want to argue that Brandon Lloyd suddenly turned into Brandon Marshall.

For some reason you lumped in Denver's offense with offenses that were in the bottom of the league throwing the ball. What is the point of that?

 

[Senser81]

I don't understand what you are arguing either. We're talking about the 2010 season and you bring up Denver's 2009 offense and highlight the use of a player that wasn't even there last year.

Denver was 7th in pass attempts, 7th in yards, 2nd in 20+ completions, and 3rd in 40+ completions. That is not a conservative offense, unless you want to argue that Brandon Lloyd suddenly turned into Brandon Marshall.

For some reason you lumped in Denver's offense with offenses that were in the bottom of the league throwing the ball. What is the point of that?

Pretty awesome how I am talking about Kyle Orton in 2009, you ask "why are you talking about Kyle Orton in 2009?" as if I didn't explain myself, and then you proceed to rattle off Denver's 2010 passing stats.

I agree. You obviously don't understand what I am arguing.

I would give you neg rep, but I'm getting bored of doing that. I guess I'll have to force myself.

EDIT: I went back in the thread, Blick, and I saw that you already asked me this exact same question...and here was my response...

If you recall, Orton's 2009 season had him leading the league in passing halfway through the year, even though basically all he did was throw 5-yard hitches to Brandon Marshall and watch Marshall break 3 tackles to gain 15 yards.

I don't understand what you're even arguing (big surprise, huh?). A QB can be highly efficient in a conservative offense. Do you remember when Garrard had like 15 TDs and no INTs during one year? Would you argue that Garrard was in an aggressive offense merely because his TD/INT ratio? Of course not.

Again, what is your point?

Why this second follow-up? What are you doing? What did you not understand from my above posting? I don't remember you being this much of a douche on MM, but maybe I am looking at MM with rose-tinted glasses.

 

[Warner2BruceTD]

I'm failing to see how Freeman ranking 15th in attempts disproves what Senser is saying. Even using that flawed statistic, that's still only middle of the pack in terms of the league.

 

[Ironworker808]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but thanks for the clarification. You informed me that no one is in the top 10 in all those categories, and you also informed me that of the 3 QBs I mentioned, none of them is in the top 10 in all those categories. Very helpful.

No one but Freeman.

No, YOU were questioning my statistics. You were the one who had his own wacky interpretation on Tampa ranking 23rd in pass attempts. This is a pathetic comeback on your part, quite frankly.

So now We're comparing Freeman to teams who used more than one quarterback? Hell, Brady had the 11th most attempts, yet the Patriots as a team were ranked 20th. Comparing a team to a single quarterback is pathetic.

And?

And while we were able to move the ball on the ground, Tampa still leaned on their QB's arm when it came down to crunch time.

Just an FYI, since you seem to be using that same wacky stat site again, Tampa scored 39 TDs last year, not 34. Freeman's passing accounted for 25 of those 39 TDs, which is 64%. And, again, you provide no context to your stats. Matt Cassel's passing accounted for 27 of KC's 44 TDs, which is 61%.

So now you're going to add in special teams and defensive touchdowns when discussing OFFENSIVE PRODUCTION?? Pathetic.

I don't understand why/how the PERCENTAGES would jump up, but here is what I've already said....

Josh Freeman's 25 TD 6 INT was nice, but it was somewhat a product of Tampa's system (and a weak schedule). They still were in the bottom half of the NFL in terms of total offense. Conversely, if you think that Freeman's 25/6 ratio WASN'T a product of Tampa's system, then you should also be wondering why Tampa scored so few points and why Tampa only ranked 23rd in pass attempts since Freeman is so awesome.

I've explained, and backed up the explanations with stats. I'm not a copy/paste artist. I'm sure there's a back arrow somewhere in your browser.

I've put plenty of evidence out there showing that Tampa neither 'hid' their quarterback, nor ran a conservative offense.

I've come up with half a dozen ways to show this, but you refuse to accept any of them as valid. You're only response is to copy/paste the same posts from earlier.

 

[Ironworker808]

I'm failing to see how Freeman ranking 15th in attempts disproves what Senser is saying. Even using that flawed statistic, that's still only middle of the pack in terms of the league.

It's definitely average. Which makes his individual rankings all the more impressive, no?

 

[Aso]

From this point on, the loser is anyone who is doing any excessive multi-quoting. This argument is pointless and regardless of what anyone says, no one is going to change their stance on the subject.

 

[Ironworker808]

From this point on, the loser is anyone who is doing any excessive multi-quoting. This argument is pointless and regardless of what anyone says, no one is going to change their stance on the subject.

Whew! Got in just in time!

 

[FirstTimer]

Blick,

Should I ban this duplicate account of yours now or later?

 

[Blick]

Blick,

Should I ban this duplicate account of yours now or later?

It can't be my account. He makes better posts.

 

[FirstTimer]

It can't be my account. He makes better posts.

Really? Then which one of your Kansas City/Overland Park KS lackeys is it?

 

[Blick]

Really? Then which one of your Kansas City/Overland Park KS lackies is it?

If you want to ban someone, go for it bud.

 

[Senser81]

So now We're comparing Freeman to teams who used more than one quarterback? Hell, Brady had the 11th most attempts, yet the Patriots as a team were ranked 20th. Comparing a team to a single quarterback is pathetic.

So now you're going to add in special teams and defensive touchdowns when discussing OFFENSIVE PRODUCTION?? Pathetic.

I've explained, and backed up the explanations with stats. I'm not a copy/paste artist. I'm sure there's a back arrow somewhere in your browser.

I gave up "arguing" with you awhile ago. I am much more interested in your use/misuse/sodomization of statistics.

First, your obsession with Freeman's pass attempts is ridiculous. You HAVE to be someone's alternate account, because no one can be this obtuse. Freeman played in all 16 games. Good for him. Most QB's didn't play in all 16 games. So, logically, Freeman will rank 15th in attempts among QBs but Tampa as a team will rank 23rd in attempts because if a team's starting QB misses a few games, that doesn't mean the team itself stops passing. Its like you are trying to equate durability with aggressiveness, and you are trying to "twist" my words when there isn't anything to twist. It just makes yourself look bad.

Second, the lack of context with your "Freeman TD %" stat is glaring. We weren't discussing offensive production, we were discussing TDs. If a team scores several special teams and defensive TDs, then that would lessen a QB's impact on the team's overall scoring. Its basic math. Even ignoring that (and the fact that Tampa scored 35 offensive TDs, not 34, so you were wrong again), Freeman scored 64% of his team's TDs, but Cassel scored 61%. So, your made-up stat is pretty much worthless, because no one knows what conclusion to draw.

 

[Ironworker808]

When you claim that Tampa is hiding their quarterback, you think that individual statistics are invalid? I guess I would to, if they blew my argument all to Hell.

When you claim that Tampa is hiding their quarterback, you think that the percentage of offensive touchdowns Freeman is responsible for is invalid? (Thanks for the correction. Forgot about Ernest Graham's TD pass. Oh my, a trick play...first sign of a conservative offense! ) I guess I would to, if it showed just how much Freeman was relied on to score.

When you claim that Tampa's eighth ranked rushing offense screams conservative, you don't think that ground scores should be taken into account? I guess I wouldn't either, if it showed that such a productive part of the offense was thrown to the wayside in the red zone. Isn't that where a conservative/hide your quarterback offense should rely on it's run game? More than any other part of the field?

Wouldn't yards per play be a better gage in determining a conservative/aggressive offense? Probably, but not one you would agree with, as that would rank the Bucs eighth in the league, above even the Colts and the Saints.

I guess if your answer is going to continue to be nothing more than '23rd in attempts' & 20th in offense' there's really nothing more I can say.

 

[Ironworker808]

Really? Then which one of your Kansas City/Overland Park KS lackeys is it?

If Blick is in Kansas, and I'm in Florida, an IP check should show I'm not him, wouldn't it?

 

[Senser81]

When you claim that Tampa is hiding their quarterback, you think that individual statistics are invalid? I guess I would to, if they blew my argument all to Hell.

I've never claimed that Tampa is "hiding" their quarterback. And I don't really understand what that means, since it is open to interpretation. You make it seem as if people are arguing that Tampa isn't letting Freeman throw a pass all game.

When you claim that Tampa is hiding their quarterback, you think that the percentage of offensive touchdowns Freeman is responsible for is invalid? (Thanks for the correction. Forgot about Ernest Graham's TD pass. Oh my, a trick play...first sign of a conservative offense! ) I guess I would to, if it showed just how much Freeman was relied on to score.

I never claimed that Tampa is "hiding" their quarterback. And I don't really understand what that means, since it is open to interpretation. Again, you don't provide any context to your stats. I showed that Freeman accounted for 64% of his team's TDs, while Cassel accounted for 61%. Any person with a brain would understand that even a bad QB is going to account for at least half of his teams' TDs if he is durable enough. It would be like saying Andre Dawson accounted for 32% of Montreal's runs in 1983.....AND????? What does that mean? What is the context? Why should anyone care?

When you claim that Tampa's eighth ranked rushing offense screams conservative, you don't think that ground scores should be taken into account? I guess I wouldn't either, if it showed that such a productive part of the offense was thrown to the wayside in the red zone. Isn't that where a conservative/hide your quarterback offense should rely on it's run game? More than any other part of the field?

As usual, you are way off the mark. Logically, one would think that having a high rushing TD total and a low rushing yardage total would equal an aggressive offense (more scoring, less running), while a low rushing TD total and a high rushing yardage total would equal a conservative offense (less scoring, more running).

Your problem, among many, is that you assume that all teams score the same amount of points, and that all teams use the same QB for 16 games. Just because Tampa doesn't score on the ground, you can't assume that they are getting way more passing TDs than the normal team. If that was the case, then Tampa wouldn't be a 10-6 team that still ranked 20th in scoring, despite all their defensive and special teams TDs.

Wouldn't yards per play be a better gage in determining a conservative/aggressive offense? Probably, but not one you would agree with, as that would rank the Bucs eighth in the league, above even the Colts and the Saints.

Possibly, but there are many other factors, too (number of plays, 1st downs, scoring, etc.). The Bucs, Colts, and Saints had nearly identical yards per play at 5.6, with fractions of decimals separating them, yet the Colts and Saints each ran over 100 more plays than Tampa, each had 50-75 more first downs, and each had 50-100 more points than Tampa.

I guess if your answer is going to continue to be nothing more than '23rd in attempts' & 20th in offense' there's really nothing more I can say.

Good. Glad we agreed that a team who infrequently passes, infrequently scores, and can run the ball well can be described as "conservative". I await our next "argument", which hopefully will end in us agreeing that basketball is easier if you are taller.

 

[Senser81]

If Blick is in Kansas, and I'm in Florida, an IP check should show I'm not him, wouldn't it?

I can have my IP show that I am posting from Santa's house in the North Pole if I wanted to.

Its awesome how you never even participated in the actual Freeman discussion in the top 100 thread, yet you decided to create an account on May 18th and only post/troll in this thread.

I guess we are just suspicious, because who would create an account whose sole purpose is to make an ass of themselves?