Dell's Pointless Lists - Greatest NBA Small Forwards

[Kuzzy Powers]

LOL @ saying Pippen was "the man" in Portland. Easy cop-out that I was thinking noone noticed, till Dell posted above me. Saying he was the man on a team that was just full of talent is pretty foolish.. especially considering he was on the tail end of his career. Brutal argument..

[Vinsane]

Since it is my list, I obviously think I have Scottie in the right place. That said, he was not "the man" in Portland. I think part of the problem that led to the unraveling against LA in game 7 in '99-'00 was they really had no go to guy. 'Sheed was the best player but doesn't really have that makeup. Steve Smith & Scottie were on the downside. Yes, Pippen provided veteran leadership but averaged only 12.5 ppg and was below his career averages across the board.

I argued earlier in the post that Scottie IMO deserved to be higher, you countered that argument so it's not a factor of where Scottie ended up on the list. Being below your career averages is acceptable in my book when you're playing in your 13th season at the time. Scottie imo was "the man" due to the reasons you listed, Steve Smith on the decline, wasn't a go to guy. Sheed, still considerably young by NBA standards was the best player on that team but not a leader, not a "star".

LOL @ saying Pippen was "the man" in Portland. Easy cop-out that I was thinking noone noticed, till Dell posted above me. Saying he was the man on a team that was just full of talent is pretty foolish.. especially considering he was on the tail end of his career. Brutal argument..

LOL @ jumping in an argument that you haven't put one iota into, other than to say LBJ deserved to be higher.

[Kuzzy Powers]

Sorry, I tend to jump into arguments after highly idiotic statements are made. Makes it easier to make you look bad. Evidently.. you did that yourself by trying to cop out with that absolutely brutal reply to my post. Good job.

Scottie has never been the man... he never will be the man.. and when they tried to make Pippen the man when MJ retired, he failed, miserably. Pippen is overrated. Get over it. He'll always be a back-up dancer.

[Vinsane]

Sorry, I tend to jump into arguments after highly idiotic statements are made. Makes it easier to make you look bad. Evidently.. you did that yourself.

Scottie has never been the man... he never will be the man.. and when they tried to make Pippen the man when MJ retired, he failed, miserably. Pippen is overrated. Get over it. He'll always be a Hall of Famer.

Bold - Fixed.

[dell71]

I argued earlier in the post that Scottie IMO deserved to be higher, you countered that argument so it's not a factor of where Scottie ended up on the list. Being below your career averages is acceptable in my book when you're playing in your 13th season at the time. Scottie imo was "the man" due to the reasons you listed, Steve Smith on the decline, wasn't a go to guy. Sheed, still considerably young by NBA standards was the best player on that team but not a leader, not a "star".

Smith was on the decline but being in his 13th season, so was Scottie. Sheed wasn't the go to guy but it had nothing to do with him only being in his 5th season. He wasn't the go to guy because he's never had the makeup to be one. If you're going to be one, you usually show it well before the 5th season.

By the time, he got to Portland, Scottie was not nearly the player he once was so he wasn't the man on that team. They were rich in talent but had no one, Pippen included, who had both the mentality and ability to be "the man." Yes, he was there to provide veteran leadership but that went out the window when they didn't have anyone who could take the ball into their hands and stop the bleeding they were doing all over the court in that game 7 against LA.

[Liquidrob]

No way Pip should be a HOFer, 1 of the 50 greatest NBA players or even on the first dream team, what a joke

Pippen will always be Robin and never even made it to Nightwing level

[Deviant]

No way Pip should be a HOFer, 1 of the 50 greatest NBA players or even on the first dream team, what a joke

Pippen will always be Robin and never even made it to Nightwing level

That's the worst argument I've ever heard because then you're saying that Jordan shouldn't be a Hall of Famer because he also played with one of the fifty greatest NBA players in Scottie Pippen.

Now, I have a bit of a problem with Pippen being at #6, so let me make a case for him being higher:

He's one of only four players to lead his team in every major statistical category (and this was when Jordan left, so he can clearly be the man when Jordan isn't around). The other three are LeBron James (2009, MVP), Kevin Garnett (2002), and Dave Cowens (1977). Cowens is a Hall of Famer, Garnett and LeBron will be Hall of Famers. I believe that's pretty good company he's in. Pippen will get in/be eligible for HoF in 2010.

What Jordan was to the Bulls, Pippen also was to the Bulls. By far, the best defending small forward I've ever seen. He holds the NBA record for career assists and steals for forwards. The only person threatening to take that from him is probably going to be LeBron James. Pippen is one of only three players to block 100 shots and record 200 steals; the other being Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon. 10 NBA All-Defensive Honors, 7 NBA All-Team Honors (3 of them were 1st Team)... the guy was just a beast.

And to be fair, do you really think Jordan could do it alone? Really? When Jordan came into the league, he was a phenom, no doubt. But until Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen came into the picture, all he was doing was scoring 40-60 points in playoff games, but getting kicked out of the first round. In fact, Jordan threatened to stay retired if they didn't keep Pippen when they thought about trading him for Shawn Kemp. The man is one of the greatest to ever play, even with/without Jordan.

And the Kukoc thing was ONE play. Pippen sat out for ONE play. Don't make it seem as if Kukoc hit ever big shot while Pippen stormed to the bench. It was in the heat of the moment of ONE play.

[Liquidrob]

That's the worst argument I've ever heard because then you're saying that Jordan shouldn't be a Hall of Famer because he also played with one of the fifty greatest NBA players in Scottie Pippen.

Now, I have a bit of a problem with Pippen being at #6, so let me make a case for him being higher:

He's one of only four players to lead his team in every major statistical category (and this was when Jordan left, so he can clearly be the man when Jordan isn't around). The other three are LeBron James (2009, MVP), Kevin Garnett (2002), and Dave Cowens (1977). Cowens is a Hall of Famer, Garnett and LeBron will be Hall of Famers. I believe that's pretty good company he's in. Pippen will get in/be eligible for HoF in 2010.

What Jordan was to the Bulls, Pippen also was to the Bulls. By far, the best defending small forward I've ever seen. He holds the NBA record for career assists and steals. The only person threatening to take that from him is probably going to be LeBron James. Pippen is one of only three players to block 100 shots and record 200 steals; the other being Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon. 10 NBA All-Defensive Honors, 7 NBA All-Team Honors (3 of them were 1st Team)... the guy was just a beast.

And to be fair, do you really think Jordan could do it alone? Really? When Jordan came into the league, he was a phenom, no doubt. But until Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen came into the picture, all he was doing was scoring 40-60 points in playoff games, but getting kicked out of the first round. In fact, Jordan threatened to stay retired if they didn't keep Pippen when they thought about trading him for Shawn Kemp. The man is one of the greatest to ever play, even with/without Jordan.

And the Kukoc thing was ONE play. Pippen sat out for ONE play. Don't make it seem as if Kukoc hit ever big shot while Pippen stormed to the bench. It was in the heat of the moment of ONE play.

no, I dont say any of that, I said pippen is overrated, not a HOFer, not 1 of the 50 greatest players and shouldnt have made the dream team

plus I already said Jordan needed his team, but not just Pippen, it was also Grant, Cartwright, Paxson, Kerr, Rodman, etc...all these guys were a great supporting cast, Pippen was just another piece, but not an all time great

Pippen was a great role-player like Dumars, Worthy, etc...and he choked and sat on the bench for 1 of the biggest plays for his team in the year it was his team

I don’t think I can name another team sport player in history who got more success of another mans success than Scottie Pippen

[ralaw]

As usual when it comes to Pippen arguments people are either on one side or the other. You have the guys who say he’s among the greatest ever and you have those who say he’s the most overrated. People who always bring up the “what did he do without Jordan” obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Yes, the Kukoc incident happened, but it shouldn’t be used to define the entire season. During the 1993-94 season the Bulls without Jordan finished with 55 wns and Pippen had one of the better seasons this league has seen. If it wasn’t for a bogus call by Hugh Hollins against the Knicks the Bulls would have went on to the Conference Finals. Pippen during the 1993-94 season was arguably the best player in the league.

It’s funny though, because Pippen often is criticized for not “carrying” the Jordanless Bulls past the conference semis….yet in the same sentence people claim Jordan was the greatest player off all-time. The triangle offense was pretty much made for a player with Jordan’s talents and the entire identity of the team was tied in with Jordan and the team still won 55 games without him. They lost to the Knicks in a 7 game series without Jordan – the greatest player ever. Pippen certainly was a role player on those great Bulls teams, but his contribution shouldn't be compared with the likes of Cartwright, Grant, Armstong, etc. Pippen's presence allowed Jordan to be Jordan, as Pippen routinely guarded the best perimeter player among a host of other contributions. IMO due to the ease at which he played the game people tend to overlook what Pippen brought to the table for those Bulls teams.

[FirstTimer]

where did I say Toni Kukoc was great? Thats the point, Pippen finally got his shot to be the man, Jordan was gone, the Bulls are in the playoffs and he is sitting on the sidelines and Kukoc is taking the final shot

Your memory is off. Pippen didn't sit just to sit. He sat because Phil decided to give the final shot to Kukoc and NOT Pippen. Yeah Pippen acted like a punk but it was understood Pippen was the man on that team and Phil drew up the play for Kukoc to start with. You're misrepresenting what happened with your wording.

Sorry, I tend to jump into arguments after highly idiotic statements are made. Makes it easier to make you look bad. Evidently.. you did that yourself by trying to cop out with that absolutely brutal reply to my post. Good job.

Scottie has never been the man... he never will be the man.. and when they tried to make Pippen the man when MJ retired, he failed, miserably. Pippen is overrated. Get over it. He'll always be a back-up dancer.

Pippen didn't "fail miserably" at being "the man". Pippen had one, if not his best season, that year in 93-94. He lead the Bulls in Scoring, assists, and the entire NBA in steals. He put up 22ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6apg and 2.9spg. He shot 49%. That Bulls team had 55 wins. The year before with Jordan, the Bulls won 57. Pippen had established himself that season has one of the top 5 players in the NBA. The next season in 1994-95 he lead the team in: Scoring, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks. He's one of only FOUR players in NBA history to accomplish that. He showed he could be a great player on his own. yeah he wasn't MJ, but no one was.

If Pippen a Top 50 player all time? Maybe. Maybe not. IMO he is but oh well. The fact that he's even in the convo though makes a good point about how good he was. Is he a HOF'er? Hell yes without a doubt. He's is perhaps one of the best perimeter defenders ever in the NBA. Leads NBA fowards all time in assists and was a very very good scorer. He is one of the best all around players in NBA history.

[Liquidrob]

Your memory is off. Pippen didn't sit just to sit. He sat because Phil decided to give the final shot to Kukoc and NOT Pippen. Yeah Pippen acted like a punk but it was understood Pippen was the man on that team and Phil drew up the play for Kukoc to start with. You're misrepresenting what happened with your wording.

No, my memory is fine, pippen sat himself on the bench, he was supposed to be a 'decoy' and he turned into a little bitch because Phil gave it to Toni

also, 'decoy' stands for 'he isnt a great shooter so lets give it to the euro'

[FirstTimer]

No, my memory is fine, pippen sat himself on the bench, he was supposed to be a 'decoy' and he turned into a little bitch because Phil gave it to Toni

also, 'decoy' stands for 'he isnt a great shooter so lets give it to the euro'

Yeah Pippen was such a bad shooter he shot 49% from the field that year....

[Liquidrob]

Yeah Pippen was such a bad shooter he shot 49% from the field that year....

You really think Pippen was a great shooter? If you do than you should just stop posting in this thead

[Vinsane]

You really think Pippen was a great shooter? If you do than you should just stop posting in this thead

Career: .473 FG%, .326% 3PT, .704 FT%

[FirstTimer]

You really think Pippen was a great shooter? If you do than you should just stop posting in this thead

I never said he was a "great" shooter. But to try and allude to the fact that he wasn't a good shooter in general or specifically that season is absurd seeing as he shot nearly 50%. Not sure how saying Kukoc is a better shooter than Pippen is slighting Pippen as the player that he was. Big deal. Kerr was a better shooter than Jordan it doesn't downgrade MJ at all. All it goes to show is that MJ was a better teammate than Pippen on the floor in a lot of ways. It doesn't make Pippen drastically less of a great player IMO. His numbers and accomplishments stand on their own merits.

Also LOL at Pippen being a "decoy" on that play. Phil drew it up to have Pippen to take the ball out of bounds. How is that a decoy? Did the Knicks have to respect Pippens ability to shoot from out of bounds? Decoy=something along the lines of Pippen in the play running of screens to draw defenders away to open up a screen slip chance for someone of someone else coming off another screen with less defensive pressure as the result of Pippen drawing defense.