Saints Defense maintained a Bounty Program

[Tailback U]

Where are these "facts" that the Saints bounty program has not caused injuries above and beyond what would have normally occured?

Where are the facts that they did?

Surely, by now, someone has gone through all of their defensive plays and has collected data on how many players the Saints injured. They have something like 18,000 documents collected over the 3 year investigation. Hopefully that's one thing they've done otherwise I don't know what the hell they've been doing.

If it hasn't been released yet for some reason, and I'd love to see it, then we can only assume that they didn't injure more players than other teams because they are innocent until proven guilty.

If they released evidence that the Saints did in fact injure more players than any other team in the league and by a significant amount then I lose and you win and I was wrong and you were right.

I have no problem being wrong. I've never said a bounty program is right, I've just been saying that I don't think it really has an affect on a player's attitude and his desire to inflict pain on other players in the game.

[Rayman]

Where are these "facts" that the Saints bounty program has not caused injuries above and beyond what would have normally occured?

Where are the facts that they have?

[Rayman]

Stop talking about me.

Who is zoneblitz?

[bucky]

they are innocent until proven guilty.

Be careful here.

[Tailback U]

Be careful here.

Why? They aren't guilty of injuring more players than other teams, therefore, they are innocent...for now.

Obviously, that can change. I'd really like to see some statistical data that's been compiled on their "dirty" hits, penalties, injuries, etc. They are guilty of implementing a bounty program, no doubt, but that's not what I'm arguing.

[FirstTimer]

The fuck went on in here?

Jesus Christ.

ZB, TBU, bucky, and Dspyder should be banned for a day for nothing more than stupidity.

[Tailback U]

The fuck went on in here?

Jesus Christ.

ZB, TBU, bucky, and Dspyder should be banned for a day for nothing more than stupidity.

Im sorry, I thought this was America!

[ralaw]

The fuck went on in here?

Jesus Christ.

ZB, TBU, bucky, and Dspyder should be banned for a day for nothing more than stupidity.

I think bucky has a bounty on W2B...rumor has it that another #1 seed paid bucky to make him crack, but W2B held up.

[Warner2BruceTD]

Why? They aren't guilty of injuring more players than other teams, therefore, they are innocent...for now.

Obviously, that can change. I'd really like to see some statistical data that's been compiled on their "dirty" hits, penalties, injuries, etc. They are guilty of implementing a bounty program, no doubt, but that's not what I'm arguing.

If they had a bounty system in place, that means every penalty, every bordeline hit, every fine, has to come into question. THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE BOUNTIES.

You keep saying that they didnt cause more injuries than they would have normally, but youbdont know that, and you never will. Having a bounty system in place opens you up to that suspicion, becase the bounties arent there for shits and giggles.

I'll turn your argument around on you. Gregg Williams knows more about football players than you ever will. He seems to think bounties work. Your argument is shit.

[Villain]

Meet The Convicted Felon Who Defrauded The NFL, And Funded The Saints Bounty Program

Meet The Convicted Felon Who Defrauded The NFL, Made Reggie Bush Ineligible, And Funded The Saints’ Bounty Program

http://deadspin.com/5890499/meet-the-convicted-felon-who-defrauded-the-nfl-made-reggie-bush-ineligible-and-funded-the-saints-bounty-program?utm_source=Deadspin+Newsletter&utm_campaign=5ab6fa5a4b-UA-142218-13&utm_medium=email#viewcomments

If the NFL were to punish every team that ran a bounty program, there are very few teams they wouldn't have to punish. That's becoming obvious in the wake of the Saints' bounty scandal, and in the parade of stories making clear that money is going to be a large factor in the league's investigation. There may be no specific prohibitions on intent to injure, but the NFL can and will legislate from existing CBA rules on salary cap circumvention. The league (and the IRS) can come down as hard as it wants on players being paid for performance under the table, and you can expect them to come down hard when some of those payments were coming from a twice-convicted felon with a history of football scandals.

Michael Ornstein is the name to know. As first reported by CBS's Mike Freeman, Ornstein—a close friend and confidant of Sean Payton—Ornstein on at least four occasions pledged his own money to the Saints' defense's bounty fund. In 2009, $10,000 toward knocking an opposing quarterback out of the game. In 2011, two separate contributions to targeting the quarterback. And on at least one other occasion, Ornstein pledged his money in an email to Payton, which spelled out the details of the bounty program.

The NFL knows this because it has that email, a highly incriminating paper trail that makes it impossible for Payton to argue his innocence, or for the Saints to claim the bounty never left the locker room. It might be the single most damaging piece of evidence, based solely on Ornstein's history.

Once upon a time, Ornstein was an NFL executive in charge of marketing. That was until he attempted to defraud the league out of $350,000. Ornstein conspired to submit fraudulent invoices to Los Angeles based manufacturers, pocketing the money and never providing the NFL with the merchandise they were led to believe they had purchased. He pleaded guilty to mail fraud, and served four months home confinement, five years of probation, and paid the NFL $160,000 in restitution.

Ornstein resurfaced a decade later, as the marketing agent who represented Reggie Bush when he turned pro. It soon came out that Ornstein had been a central figure in providing Bush with improper benefits while at USC, as Ornstein competed with eventual whistleblower Lloyd Lake for Bush's services. According to a Yahoo investigation, Ornstein had paid for airfare, limousine service and luxury hotel stays for Bush's family, as well as a weekly "allowance" of at least $1,500.

Despite this, Ornstein followed Bush to New Orleans and quickly became a member of the Saints' inner circle. The Times-Picayune reported that,

while not an official employee of the Saints, Ornstein has been a fixture at practices, games and in the locker room since the Saints drafted Bush in April 2006. He often wears team gear and is a regular presence on the sideline and on the field during practices.

Payton devoted a chapter in his recent book about how valuable an asset Ornstein was to the team during its Super Bowl championship season. Ornstein was a point man for the Saints during their trip to Miami for the Super Bowl, arranging everything from daily gifts for players and their wives to strategically placed Saints billboards throughout the city. Ornstein also helps Payton with business arrangements outside of football, including the book deal and a movie script that Payton was working on last year.

It was during that Super Bowl season when Ornstein was allegedly offered 10 grand to injure opposing quarterbacks. The next year he was in trouble again, being brought up on federal fraud charges for two separate schemes. One involved selling trading cards with swatches of NFL jerseys, with Ornstein obtaining fake certificates of authenticity to claim the jerseys were game-worn. The other involved scalping Super Bowl tickets purchased from people who received them at face value from their employers—in many cases, NFL players. To cover their tracks, Ornstein rigged up fake forms indicating the Super Bowl tickets were going to charity.

Ornstein cooperated with investigators and was sentenced to eight months in prison. He began serving his time last March; it's not clear if he was still incarcerated when he was emailing Sean Payton to fund the bounty.

Here he is at Saints training camp. Here he is posing with Sean Payton and Drew Brees at a charity event. Here he is celebrating on the field with the team when the Saints won the Super Bowl. Mike Ornstein, never a Saints employee but exactly the sort of hanger-on you expect attached to a shady college program, was given an all-access pass in New Orleans for six seasons. If Roger Goodell needs any justification to bring the hammer down on the Saints, he need look no farther than the company they keep on the sidelines.

[Villain]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17595418

Saints took common practice of bounties to new, dangerous level

The bounty was $2,000, and the conditions were simple: Knock the starting quarterback out of the game and the cash was yours.

So it was on. The bounty was kept secret from the coaching staff and some of the team. Mostly, only the bounty hunters themselves -- players on the defensive line -- knew the whole plan. The money was fronted by the participants, and one player held the cash.

The problem was, in the game, no one reached the quarterback, and the bounty went unclaimed. The next week, it was doubled to $4,000. The quarterback survived the game intact. The pot grew to $8,000, and finally the defense had knocked out a quarterback, but there were problems. He was only out a few plays and the player who made the hit wasn't part of the bounty crew.

The players spent the money on exotic dancers instead.

That's one story from a player who asked that neither he nor his team be identified. Other players from around the NFL, in interviews, also recounted various bounty tales. The practice is far from isolated. Some players estimated 30 to 40 percent of all NFL players last season participated in a bounty system.

"This 'bounty' program happens all around the league," former NFL lineman Damien Woody tweeted, "not surprising."

"Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are part of this game," former Washington defensive back Matt Bowen wrote. "It is an ugly tradition ... you will find it in plenty of NFL cities."

This, the players seem to agree on. There are many bounty systems in the NFL. They can inspire more energized play, and are usually created by players, not coaches. Players interviewed said bounties are offered for anything from knocking a player out of the game to delivering so-called remember-me shots.

These players also said most bounties involve small amounts of cash from several hundred dollars to several thousand, rarely more. Mostly, players say, coaches are left out of the loop.

But players also describe the bounty system as a clumsy apparatus that rarely works. "It's actually almost impossible to do the stuff you set out to do," one AFC player said.

That's because bounties are usually done by defensive teams, and since there are newer rules that protect offenses more than ever, bounties have become far less effective. The penalties, fines and suspensions make the bounty system not worth it.

What makes the most recent case involving the Saints so unusual, players say, was the highly sophisticated system was organized by Gregg Williams, the defensive coach who has been linked to bounty systems in New Orleans, Washington and Buffalo, the latter two according to several published reports. Players interviewed said they have never heard or seen anything remotely close to what Williams and Saints are said to have done by NFL investigators.

This is the crux of this story and why the NFL is reacting so strongly. While bounties have long existed -- going back decades, most infamously associated with Buddy Ryan and the Philadelphia Eagles in the 1980s -- what the Saints did was institutionalize them.

One league official familiar with the NFL investigation put it this way: The Saints took a ragtag concept and turned it into a car assembly line. They made it efficient and vicious, with bounty tentacles reaching the head coach and general manager.

"We became extremely concerned that what the Saints were doing," said the official, who is familiar with the NFL's investigation, "would lead to a player or series of players being badly hurt or worse."

***

Several players said almost every key offensive player over the past several years has been targeted by bounties by many NFL teams including Aaron Rodgers, Adrian Peterson, Cam Newton, Maurice Jones-Drew, Ben Roethlisberger, Ray Rice, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Tony Romo and Tim Tebow.

One player remembers a bounty being put on Tom Brady and Randy Moss simultaneously during the duo's record-setting season several years ago. That bounty obviously didn't work out so well.

Players say bounties are done several different ways, none of them sophisticated. A pool of money can be collected and doled out for big hits on offensive stars, leading to a betting-like system. Monetary values are assigned to the various hits with the more damaging hits or knockout blows getting the most cash.

In some cases, it's even simpler. In the moments before games, players will simply call something out, and another player will match. One player described as simply as "500 for a big hit on the quarterback" and players will match it. One player keeps tabs on the bounty in a notebook. It's often that rudimentary.

Former Pittsburgh Steeler Hines Ward said several years ago he was told the Baltimore Ravens put a bounty on him. According to Ward, if he was knocked out on crossing route, the Raven who did it would receive a monetary bonus from other players. The Ravens denied this.

But again, players stressed that most bounties were useless and not always taken seriously. Williams might have changed that. On Friday, the NFL released results of a lengthy investigation that revealed a bounty system in the Saints organization that paid players for injuring opponents. According to the NFL, two of the players the Saints targeted were Brett Favre and Kurt Warner.

The bounty system isn't new. It goes back decades, perhaps to the birth of the sport professionally itself. No team became more symbolized with the practice than Ryan's Eagles. The 1989 Thanksgiving game between Philadelphia and Dallas was nicknamed the "Bounty Bowl" after coach Jimmy Johnson said he was told Ryan put a $200 bounty on kicker Luis Zendejas and $500 on quarterback Troy Aikman.

The league said it found no evidence of bounties, but fined 17 players total from both teams for fighting.

Almost a quarter-century later, the league would have an even bigger bounty mess. Much bigger.

***

Players, coaches and team executives all believe commissioner Roger Goodell will use the Saints' bounty case the way he did the New England Patriots and Spygate. Goodell fined Bill Belichick $500,000 (the maximum allowed and the largest fine in league history), the organization $250,000 and docked the team a first-round draft selection. It was a devastating penalty, but many believe Goodell did it to end the illicit videotaping culture forever.

League executives believe worse could happen in Bountygate. Officials think Goodell will not just heavily penalize Williams and the Saints players, but he will go extremely hard after coach Sean Payton. It would surprise few in the NFL if Payton wasn't hit harder than Belichick financially and also suspended. Officials also expect Goodell to fine and suspend general manager Mickey Loomis and dock the Saints at least a first-round selection.

One official familiar with the investigation said the penalties could be unprecedented, with suspensions being at least six games. The NFL cautions no decision has been made.

Nonetheless, Goodell could potentially level the organization like a bounty was put on the Saints -- and he will use this crisis to try and end the practice of bounty football forever.

[Bomberooski]

Bounty Money earned by Saints defenders on the following play: $0

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDd5DPAGoCk"]Marshawn Lynch (True Meaning of Determination) - YouTube[/ame]

[1ke]

I didnt know people cared this much about this shit especially while knowing that had existed.

[ZoneBlitz]

Bounties have been going on since the beginning of football, geeks.

[Warner2BruceTD]

I think you guys who are nonchalantly disregarding this because it already existed are off base in terms of how far the Saints went with it.

I have serious doubts that you will find $10k bounties on players on every NFL locker room, with upwards of 25 players involved with the coaching staffs and outside convicted felons.