The breakdown of P4P meaning and fighters

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Mauricio ‘Shogun’ Rua 18-3-0 15 TKO’s, 1 Submission, 2 Decisions

Just a year or 2 ago Shogun was in the top 3 p4p discussion, even though Wand was the champ of pride, Shogun was seen as the people’s champ of the division. Shogun has almost a 90% finishing rate and if you throw out a fluke loss to Coleman who he later beat when he broke his arm on a takedown his record looks even better, only losses was to Forrest most recently and Babalu early in his career

With wins over Chuck, Rampage, Overeem X 2, Randleman, Arona, and Little Nog his resume is as impressive as anyone and these are not decision wins, these were beat downs for the most part. Shogun has the total package of strikes, takedowns, subs, etc…only concerns is he ‘looks sloppy’ when he is just going off on someone and in the UFC you cant stomp or soccer kick, but he will still blast you as he showed against Chuck instead of kicking he just hammer fisted the Ice Man to sleep, also lately his cardio has not been as impressive as in the past but coming off major surgery and a long lay off he is still as dangerous as they come and seems to be building back the stamina

Next up is Machida, if Shogun takes out the dragon, he is right in the top 5 mix, sorry guys, it’s true

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having a problem picking a legit 10th to throw in the mix

I wanted more lightweights because of the skill level, but Aoki, JZ, Hansen, Alvarez and Kawajiria are all cancelling each other out, cant pick 1

Maybe Forrest? Alves is not as impressive as it seems but if he beats GSP he is in, Fitch doesnt have the signature win, Hendo not as impressive of late and has a couple losses and a lack luster win against Rich and a bunch of decisions, worse than Machida

who else?

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

How about we have a little discussion on who the #2 heavyweight in the world is...and, whether or not they should be considered in the Top 10.

Comes down to Barnett and Mir for me. I'd take Mir, but that's me. This is a different Mir we've seen in his last three fights, all against legit heavies. Arlovski isn't even close anymore after getting his azz beat by Rogers.

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How about we have a little discussion on who the #2 heavyweight in the world is...and, whether or not they should be considered in the Top 10.

Comes down to Barnett and Mir for me. I'd take Mir, but that's me. This is a different Mir we've seen in his last three fights, all against legit heavies. Arlovski isn't even close anymore after getting his azz beat by Rogers.

I think its Barnett my a mile, Mir isnt in that convo even if he beats Lesnar again, he needs to beat some quality heavys

Mir has way to many weaknesses, I think Barnett is fringe top 10 p4p and the only HW that could crack the top 10, if he beats Fedor, of course, but besides that it would be tough

Barnett has had a weird career with beign the UFC champ, steriods, pro wrestling, cro cop losses, but he is legit and easily the number 2 HW in the world IMO

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I think they are right next to each other...but I try not to use subjective stuff like skill and try to envision match ups...trying to be fair and use the tangible stuff. Mir's hurt a bit because he is in the UFC where he can't fight Fedor or Barnett or AA nor can he fight Big Tim again, or up and comer Brett Rogers who is hot hot hot after the AA fight...definitely burst on the scene and made his name more known with that fight. However, this Frank Mir isn't the same Mir that lost to Vera three years ago either.

Barnett and Mir is a bit closer than I think you let on...over the past "2 and a half" years, both have been pretty much at the same level. If you look at same opponents...Barnett loses to Big Nog...Mir beats him. I thought Mir's win over Hardonk held a little more weight before Hardonk lost to Kongo.

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Shinya Aoki 20-4-0 1 TKO, 12 Submissions, 5 decisions

Aoki is the most ‘limited’ of the top p4p fighters on the list, but Aoki does something that not many submission guys do when they cant get the takedown, he can still force you to the ground by pulling guard, pulling half guard, flying guard pull or even butt scooting. In America pulling guard is seen as a weak tactic, but Aoki doesn’t care, he will dictate where the fight goes even if he is overpowered and not many fighters can say or do that

His stand up is lacking, his takedowns are decent (judo throws mostly), but his sub game is 1 of the best if not the best in MMA, probably has the most wins over top 5 LW competition in JZ, Alvarez and Hansen, throw in LW beast Cal Uno and Aoki has been a monster at 155.

When you add that the Hansen win was via Gogoplata, the Alverez was from a heel hook, Aoki has put away top comp with subs, not decisions and even when he took JZ the distance it was a grappling masterpiece from the bottom which you rarely see in todays MMA game and these 3 are not grappling novices

2 out of his 4 losses are to Sakurai at 170 and is a legit bad ass, Aoki and Hansen are 1-1 against each other and a 3rd match hopefully will be on its way

Aoki and his magic pants always put on a grappling clinic

also, another plus I'd like to throw out for Aoki is that he has fought 9 times since 08

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So my current top 10 is (not in order)

Fedor (HW)
GSP (WW)
Machida (LHW)
Penn (LW)
Silva (MW)
Torres (BW)
Brown (FW)
Rampage (LHW)
Shogun (LHW)
Aoki (LW)

What I find interesting is that in p4p rankings in boxing, the majority of the fighters will be in the lower weight, but just going by this list and other MMA p4p lists you see a lot of the higher weight class fighters in the mix or dominating the top 10

I think because MMA still has its open weight feel and tradition and the higher weight class fighter doesnt get short changed for just being 'bigger'

Even guys like GSP who fight at 170 are considered 'smaller' by MMA standards and when you look at a boxing top 10, it will have only 1 maybe 2 guys at that weight and all the fighters are 160 and below

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I think they are right next to each other...but I try not to use subjective stuff like skill and try to envision match ups...trying to be fair and use the tangible stuff. Mir's hurt a bit because he is in the UFC where he can't fight Fedor or Barnett or AA nor can he fight Big Tim again, or up and comer Brett Rogers who is hot hot hot after the AA fight...definitely burst on the scene and made his name more known with that fight. However, this Frank Mir isn't the same Mir that lost to Vera three years ago either.

Barnett and Mir is a bit closer than I think you let on...over the past "2 and a half" years, both have been pretty much at the same level. If you look at same opponents...Barnett loses to Big Nog...Mir beats him. I thought Mir's win over Hardonk held a little more weight before Hardonk lost to Kongo.

I dont see anything Mir has done to vault him up, Nog just looks old, slow and broken, I said it before that he can still pull out a great win because of his chin, heart and skill, but since coming to the UFC, he almost got KO'd by Heath, Tim was laying into him and Mir hit the same 3 punch combo every time he threw it

Hardonk, Brock are not great or even good wins at this point

Barnett atleast has some history and a defined skill set, does Mir have even good stand up? No, good takedowns? No, Cardio? No, has a very good sub game though

Barnett is better at everything than Mir except fighting from his back, but Barnett has many sub wins and is a stud on the ground, they just have a different kind of ground game, Catch vs BJJ

Even though AA has fallen off, he would be good gauge for Mir IMO, even a Werdum who the UFC dropped, I guess we will have to see if Cain and Carwin get some shots at the title after the Brock/Mir fight

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

I dont see anything Mir has done to vault him up, Nog just looks old, slow and broken, I said it before that he can still pull out a great win because of his chin, heart and skill, but since coming to the UFC, he almost got KO'd by Heath, Tim was laying into him and Mir hit the same 3 punch combo every time he threw it

Hardonk, Brock are not great or even good wins at this point

Barnett atleast has some history and a defined skill set, does Mir have even good stand up? No, good takedowns? No, Cardio? No, has a very good sub game though

Barnett is better at everything than Mir except fighting from his back, but Barnett has many sub wins and is a stud on the ground, they just have a different kind of ground game, Catch vs BJJ

Even though AA has fallen off, he would be good gauge for Mir IMO, even a Werdum who the UFC dropped, I guess we will have to see if Cain and Carwin get some shots at the title after the Brock/Mir fight

Arlovski, love him, but at this point I am not sure I'd consider him a quality opponent for a "Top 5" Heavyweight. He is coming off being dropped twice and hasn't done anything since beating Werdum a few years ago...and Werdum is a bum, a boring bum at that. At least when Big Tim was boring, he was legit and winning and when he wasn't, he was shoveled off.

The best match for both, considering at the very least I'd put Mir 3 to Barnett's 2, would be each other, but that's not happening.

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Arlovski, love him, but at this point I am not sure I'd consider him a quality opponent for a "Top 5" Heavyweight. He is coming off being dropped twice and hasn't done anything since beating Werdum a few years ago...and Werdum is a bum, a boring bum at that. At least when Big Tim was boring, he was legit and winning and when he wasn't, he was shoveled off.

The best match for both, considering at the very least I'd put Mir 3 to Barnett's 2, would be each other, but that's not happening.

Mir isnt at Barnetts level, or Fedors

Mir is fighting Hardonks and Brocks, Mir should fight an AA, Werdum, or even Monson

I would like to see Mir beatdown by Fedor and Barnett, but thats not happening any time soon

Even Cro Cop would be good, if Cro Cop wins his next fight he should fight Brock or Mir, you cant forget all the people Cro Cop beat and say he is a scrub, the dude has a legit hit list

[EmpireWF]

No way Cro Cop should fight Mir/Brock next if he wins Saturday. Cro Cop would have beaten an average dude in Al-Turk. Let Cro Cop have at Gonzaga again or even Carwin, first.

[LiquidLarry2GhostWF]

Mir isnt at Barnetts level, or Fedors

Mir is fighting Hardonks and Brocks, Mir should fight an AA, Werdum, or even Monson

I would like to see Mir beatdown by Fedor and Barnett, but thats not happening any time soon

Even Cro Cop would be good, if Cro Cop wins his next fight he should fight Brock or Mir, you cant forget all the people Cro Cop beat and say he is a scrub, the dude has a legit hit list

Mir is also fighting Big Nog, the same Big Nog (maybe not the same, but if we are giving Cro Cop credit for his hit list...shouldn't we be for Big Nog) that beat Barnett two years ago. We can say Big Nog has gotten older, but dude was a Top 5 in his division at that point.

And, who has Barnett gone against recently? He beat Monson a year ago and then had Pedro frigin Rizzo and the other black guy whose name slips my mind recently.

And I won't hate on Cro Cop, if he is on his game, he is as legit as they come...gave Barnett three ass whoopings over the years.

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No way Cro Cop should fight Mir/Brock next if he wins Saturday. Cro Cop would have beaten an average dude in Al-Turk. Let Cro Cop have at Gonzaga again or even Carwin, first.

Why not? Cro Cop has paid his dues, if he wins why not let him fight Mir or Brock, would be great, there is no ryme or reason for any title shot

Both Nog and Brock beat Heath to get a title shot and Mir beat a 1-0 fighter to get a shot, a couple losses should not exclude Cro Cop how is a big name and has been an awesome fighter in the past

You cant waste Cro Cop if he is back in the UFC, should have gotten a shot right after the Eddie Sanchez fight the first time

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Mir is also fighting Big Nog, the same Big Nog (maybe not the same, but if we are giving Cro Cop credit for his hit list...shouldn't we be for Big Nog) that beat Barnett two years ago. We can say Big Nog has gotten older, but dude was a Top 5 in his division at that point.

And, who has Barnett gone against recently? He beat Monson a year ago and then had Pedro frigin Rizzo and the other black guy whose name slips my mind recently.

And I won't hate on Cro Cop, if he is on his game, he is as legit as they come...gave Barnett three ass whoopings over the years.

Nog looked like hell, he was Zombie Nog, yes it looks nice, but I havent seen Mir do anything yet to be considered a top HW, he only gets props because its a weak division and is the UFC HW champ (sort of)

Barnetts wins of note, Yvel, Rizzo, Monson, Nog, Hunt, Aleks, Schilt, Randy

Man, I wish Aleks would get his shit straight and fight again in a big show, so much promise

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found an interesting fun fact while searching through some records

Gilbert Yvel is 35-13-1

Has 30 TKO's and 5 Submission wins for a 100% finishing rate!

lol, you know you are in for a scrap when you fight Yvel and he might gouge your eyes out