UFC 99 Thread (Spoilers)

[Liquidrob]

establishing a jab could be a sound strategy in MMA, but its not as big as you think, when trying to work that jab and guys are throwing bombs with 4 ounce gloves it is a dangerous game, also you can take some solid lead leg kicks when trying to work the jab

fights were the jab was effective like Penn vs Sherk are different, Penn had reach on Sherk, also Sherk has midget arms and doesnt throw leg kicks, so it was perfect

If you get a good jab going, you still need sound defense which is a lot harder to have in MMA compared to boxing because of the glove size, I think the jab is only key in certain fights and where style dictates it, you cant go out in every fight and just say 'work the jab' in MMA

also, to go on further about the jab in MMA, remember that a kick is a longer weapon than the jab, so styles should dictate when you try and establish the jab

Trying to jab with a really good kick boxer will get you lead leg destroyed, you just cant work an effective jab when a guy is dropping front and rear leg bombs on your leg, the best wepaon against kickers like that is a takedown or get into clinch range, not jabbing it

You really need to check those kicks and follow it in for a clinch or takedown, or shoot on the kick

In boxing you have bigger gloves (better defense), no threat of a kick or takedown, so its more of a given to establish your jab, where in MMA it can be costly and you really have many more weapons to worry about

[Liquidrob]

I agree with that, the jab isn't of the same effectiveness as it is in boxing, but it's still important. Penn worked the jab on Hughes, Pulver, and a lot of other guys he fought, so it's not just about the reach adv.

Pulver is a boxer now, he doesnt leg kick and even shoot anymore, of course BJ worked him, plus BJ has the reach advantage on Pulver

Hughes has subpar stand up and in there 2nd fight when it went more than a minute BJ wasnt really doing damage with it, some in the first round, but Hughes was able to get him down and beat him

It is still effective, but I think you are overrating the jab off a couple of fights

[Steel Mamba]

Jardine worked a pretty good jab against Chuck. So, there's your counter to it not being possible to work a jab against someone throwing bombs. I also think Kongo worked a jab against Cro Cop, so there it worked against a great kicker too.

[Liquidrob]

So, what I'm looking at is a lot more than just punching/kicking ability, which is why a few guys who don't kick are on my list while Cro Cop isn't. It's about the overall fundamentals and technical skills of their game. That's footwork, ring generalship, strategy, work-rate, variety, and overall offensive/defensive technique and ability. I think some of those guys score better throughout all of those categories than Cro Cop does.

what you described is basically chuck liddel in his prime minus what you consider fundamentals

chuck based his game around beating grapplers which in the UFC at the time was grappler heavy, I was never a big chuck fan and thought legit strikers would expose him which they finally did, but that doesnt mean he wasnt good

Chuck was an elite MMA striker and to his credit he beat Guy Metzger, Vitor Belfort and Overeem just with his stand up and I think this is where some of your arguement is flawed and you are ranking style over substance where you need to look at the overall picture more

Those 3 guys Chuck beat are better than any striker Silva and Machida ever beat, only guy you can say would be Rashad but he is way more raw than those 3 which have legit stand up backgrounds

Chuck did get outstruck by Rampage, Rashad and Shogun, but thats more his fault and not changing his style than anything, but Chuck beat who the UFC put in front of him for a long time and he has some nice stand up wins like Guy, Vitor and Overeem

lets see Silva and machida beat guys like that in a stand up game first before we lable tham striking gods

of course Chuck had weird fundamentals, but thats how he trained them believe or not, that was the gameplan during his UFC title run

just like you say you cant really judge machidas technique because he is using karate Chuck is in the same boat, he had a karate background and thats where his training is from

[Liquidrob]

Jardine worked a pretty good jab against Chuck. So, there's your counter to it not being possible to work a jab against someone throwing bombs. I also think Kongo worked a jab against Cro Cop, so there it worked against a great kicker too.

Jardines main weapon was leg kicks if I remember correctly, it was a total effort in combination, not just jabbing chuck in the face which didnt happen, I never said it cant work against bombs, I said you gotta be careful, of course it can work, but not to the extent you can in boxing becuase you can show better defense with the gloves and the lack of getting taken down and kicked

like I said, a jab can be effective, never said it wasnt, but in a boxing match you can say about the majority of the fights 'he needs to work the jab' and you would correct, doesnt work like that in MMA

[Steel Mamba]

of course Chuck had weird fundamentals, but thats how he trained them believe or not, that was the gameplan during his UFC title run

just like you say you cant really judge machidas technique because he is using karate Chuck is in the same boat, he had a karate background and thats where his training is from

The difference is that there's huge holes in Chucks game that a lot of good strikers have been able to exploit. While Machida's style is also unique there doesn't seem to be any large holes in his game, unlike Chuck's.

Jardines main weapon was leg kicks if I remember correctly, it was a total effort in combination, not just jabbing chuck in the face which didnt happen, I never said it cant work against bombs, I said you gotta be careful, of course it can work, but not to the extent you can in boxing becuase you can show better defense with the gloves and the lack of getting taken down and kicked

like I said, a jab can be effective, never said it wasnt, but in a boxing match you can say about the majority of the fights 'he needs to work the jab' and you would correct, doesnt work like that in MMA

Yeah it was the front kick, but also the jab as well. He setup some good combos off of his jab and at times kept Chuck at bay with the jab and front kick. But, I agree with you, you're not going to see the jab used as often as it is in boxing. In MMA it shouldn't be used as often, but that doesn't make it any less important.

[Liquidrob]

The difference is that there's huge holes in Chucks game that a lot of good strikers have been able to exploit. While Machida's style is also unique there doesn't seem to be any large holes in his game, unlike Chuck's.

thats part of my problem with your arguement, chuck has had to fight some very good strikers and has had some sucess, probably like 3-3 vs legit striking comp

Machida hasnt had to face any great strikers to be exposed, I watch machida highlights and he gets in, leaves his chin wide open, doesnt always have his hands high while punching, etc...he just hasnt been tested by anyone, of course he looks so sharp, same with Silva, the best strikers he fought was a street brawling boxer in lee Murray and guys like Cote? lol, Rich probably is the best he faced, but Rich doesnt have a great striking pedigree and had no answer for the clinch which better strikers would

let me see machida fight rampage, shogun, mousasi, etc...first

let me see Silva fight Manhoef or Vitor, he wont be dancing against those 2

dont put this guys in the striking hall of fame without ever getting tested by a legit striking threat, I think people tend to overrate the 'hot' fighter, the newest thing before they are even tested, I fall into that sometimes, but try not to

[Liquidrob]

this is what happens to Silva when he tries to get And1 with guys who are not afraid to strike with him

[Steel Mamba]

thats part of my problem with your arguement, chuck has had to fight some very good strikers and has had some sucess, probably like 3-3 vs legit striking comp

Machida hasnt had to face any great strikers to be exposed, I watch machida highlights and he gets in, leaves his chin wide open, doesnt always have his hands high while punching, etc...he just hasnt been tested by anyone, of course he looks so sharp, same with Silva, the best strikers he fought was a street brawling boxer in lee Murray and guys like Cote? lol, Rich probably is the best he faced, but Rich doesnt have a great striking pedigree and had no answer for the clinch which better strikers would

let me see machida fight rampage, shogun, mousasi, etc...first

let me see Silva fight Manhoef or Vitor, he wont be dancing against those 2

dont put this guys in the striking hall of fame without ever getting tested by a legit striking threat, I think people tend to overrate the 'hot' fighter, the newest thing before they are even tested, I fall into that sometimes, but try not to

You're right, I just think Machida and Silva would perform well against those guys you mentioned. But, of course there's only one way to know for sure, so hopefully we get to see some of those matches.

[Liquidrob]

I know some people just don’t like certain things, but do any of you guys watch K1 at all? I don’t follow it as much as I used to besides some of there freak show matches and wacky scoring, this is the highest level of kick boxing around

I think most people in American need are to boxing-centric and don’t see the other forms of striking as 'technical’, but just watch some K1 stuff, its pretty entertaining and some high level stuff

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[Liquidrob]

Nice mix of Cro Cop in K1 and MMA

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[Steel Mamba]

I used to watch K1, but haven't in a long time. There's some very talented guys in K1, but some strictly MMA guys have beaten some good K1 fighters before (in K1). So, I don't make the assumption that just because someone has a K1 background automatically makes him an elite striker in MMA. I mean you can say that for some of the guys, but not all of them. Also, how many K1 guys are in the P4P talks, or even at the top of their divisions'?

[Liquidrob]

I used to watch K1, but haven't in a long time. There's some very talented guys in K1, but some strictly MMA guys have beaten some good K1 fighters before (in K1). So, I don't make the assumption that just because someone has a K1 background automatically makes him an elite striker in MMA. I mean you can say that for some of the guys, but not all of them. Also, how many K1 guys are in the P4P talks, or even at the top of their divisions'?

Of course it doesnt make you an elite striker in MMA, makes you better than most for sure (besides the freak show fights), but you know if you fight a K1 guy you are in for a battle and the guy can handle himself on his feet

MMA guys have done ok because of the rounds and rules, shorter rounds makes it easier for a less skilled guy to win and the scoring structure, its hit or be hit, kill or be killed, also open weight fights make size and power a big factor

not sure about the P4P talks would matter, its not there sport, but Cro Cop was the number 2 or 3 HW for awhile because he actually devolped a sprawl and ground defense and trained MMA full time which I dont think many K1 guys have besides Cro Cop, all the K1 guys lose in MMA because of the ground game, just like boxers would if they would make the jump

K1 is hardcore, like Mo Smith once told me 'MMA is a vacation compared to K1'

[calgaryballer]

God damn, I love Ernesto Hoost

The K-1 World GP Final is one of my favorite events every year

[Liquidrob]

AA quote his training, chin and Rogers

"I focused too much on boxing and not enough on the wrestling and jiu-jitsu. It wasn’t right. It’s another thing I have to think about. MMA is not boxing. I have to change something."

"I don’t understand this question about my chin. When you open your face for four or five punches it doesn’t matter your chin, you will get KOed." Crediting his adversary, he continued, "Rogers was great, he did what he did. I took the fight and I got my ass kicked, it’s that simple. It’s embarrassing, but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I have to move on. I’m definitely going to come back."